Time to cut Ulster loose?

Should NI be cut loose

  • Time for a province independence referendum

    Votes: 25 31.3%
  • Union with the south

    Votes: 21 26.3%
  • Commonwealth status

    Votes: 9 11.3%
  • Full rule from Westminster

    Votes: 19 23.8%
  • Home rule from Stormont

    Votes: 20 25.0%

  • Total voters
    80
#41
Just throwing it out there for discussion......

The Independent Republic of Scotland & Northern Ireland
Do **** off. We've enough trouble with our own sectarian heidbangers without being shackled to that lot.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
#43
A good run out for your Defence Forces reinforced by the Bundeswehr and Armee de Terre though...

That might prove interesting!
Shouldn’t be a problem. The republic locked more up than we did, they were more accurate in their targeting and quicker too.

The method of release was to sign a paper promising no return to violence. Rendering the freed man useless to the cause unless he was keen on a really heavy sentence.
 
#45
My comments in italics, bearing in mind I am not a civil servant nor the PM.

If they are retarded then offer some of your own, its not if but when, the province is a financial drain beyond any perceived benefit. There will come a time (especially now Princess Tony has secured peace (Ha ha) ) that we will start to look at the numbers and if the Scots go then we will have to consider it seriously, so instead of naysaying come up with something a bit more palatable and think on this, eventually the majority will be on the other foot and you may have no choice.
Its your poll you bellend... It's not my job to edit your naive poll options. It’s always best to do a little homework prior to discussing a topic you know f*ck all about. Just because you have achieved the dizzy heights in life of being an Arrse moderator won't prevent me from pointing out that you seem like a gammon shaded, dribbling idiot with very little understanding of this topic.

I don’t dispute that turnout for nationalists has been rising while the unionist vote has been falling. But it would be naive to think that this translates to reunification via the border poll. There’s no risk involved when it comes to assembly or Westminster elections but there is a risk involved when a border poll in the offering. The Scottish referendum was a good example of this. The SNP had a majority in 2011 and took all but three of the Westminster seats in 2015. Yet the majority of Scots voted to stay in the UK in the referendum. Bear in mind also that the 2016 assembly elections didn’t make pleasant reading for SF. This about about realism. Simply pretending NI can be booted out of the union is absurd and counterproductive.

Don’t be surprised if reunification is set back by another few decades because many in the south are not remotely interested in the issue while they are bearing the brunt of EU membership.

I have seen no one put forward a reasoned case for a UI. Indeed, as Sinn Fein are the most vocal cheer leaders for such an outcome, the whole case is lost with regard to Unionists. It is like OJ Simpson arguing for domestic violence legislation.

Meanwhile, looking outside of Arrse (something a lot of members forget to do) at the real world we need to acknowledge that the people of Northern Ireland have the right to choose their future. Not some English larger louts who post stupid polls like this one. Either stay in the UK or in an entirely new country with their neighbours south of the border.
It seems to me that the appetite just isn't there to start all over again and build a new country from scratch - particularly since the foundations would be extremely unstable from the outset - and giving up all the advantages of being in the UK for a roll of the dice in a united Ireland which, frankly, one struggles to imagine being anything but an economic disaster.
The idea that a UI is 'inevitable' (besides being a tired old song that hardcore Republicans have been singing for 50 or 60 years now) flies in the face of all reality. It is no more inevitable than the US ceding Texas or California back to Mexico - are there demographic, historical and emotional factors in favour of that scenario? Yes. Is it likely? One would have to say not.
 
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#46
Just throwing it out there for discussion......

The Independent Republic of Scotland & Northern Ireland
Both places are full of loyalists and Scotland almost as dependent as NI on the English taxpayer. They'd need the IMF on speed dial.
 
#47
Its your poll you bellend... It's not my job to edit your naive poll options. It’s always best to do a little homework prior to discussing a topic you know f*ck all about. Just because you have achieved the dizzy heights in life of being an Arrse moderator won't prevent me from pointing out that you seem like a gammon shaded, dribbling idiot with very little understanding of this topic.

I don’t dispute that turnout for nationalists has been rising while the unionist vote has been falling. But it would be naive to think that this translates to reunification via the border poll. There’s no risk involved when it comes to assembly or Westminster elections but there is a risk involved when a border poll in the offering. The Scottish referendum was a good example of this. The SNP had a majority in 2011 and took all but three of the Westminster seats in 2015. Yet the majority of Scots voted to stay in the UK in the referendum. Bear in mind also that the 2016 assembly elections didn’t make pleasant reading for SF. This about about realism. Simply pretending NI can be booted out of the union is absurd and counterproductive.

Don’t be surprised if reunification is set back by another few decades because many in the south are not remotely interested in the issue while they are bearing the brunt of EU membership.

I have seen no one put forward a reasoned case for a UI. Indeed, as Sinn Fein are the most vocal cheer leaders for such an outcome, the whole case is lost with regard to Unionists. It is like OJ Simpson arguing for domestic violence legislation.

Meanwhile, looking outside of Arrse (something a lot of members forget to do) at the real world we need to acknowledge that the people of Northern Ireland have the right to choose their future. Not some English larger louts who post stupid polls like this one. Either stay in the UK or in an entirely new country with their neighbours south of the border.
It seems to me that the appetite just isn't there to start all over again and build a new country from scratch - particularly since the foundations would be extremely unstable from the outset - and giving up all the advantages of being in the UK for a roll of the dice in a united Ireland which, frankly, one struggles to imagine being anything but an economic disaster.
The idea that a UI is 'inevitable' (besides being a tired old song that hardcore Republicans have been singing for 50 or 60 years now) flies in the face of all reality. It is no more inevitable than the US ceding Texas or California back to Mexico - are there demographic, historical and emotional factors in favour of that scenario? Yes. Is it likely? One would have to say not.
There is a precedent, we got rid of the rest of Ireland in a heartbeat and Carson;s "Protestant State for a Protestant People" was a complete and utter bloody mistake.

NI was left to the bigoted Protestant Establishment with little care or concern of the British State or British people.

The net result was a twisted and nasty little statelet run on the lines of Apartheid South Africa.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#48
Its your poll you bellend... It's not my job to edit your naive poll options. It’s always best to do a little homework prior to discussing a topic you know f*ck all about. Just because you have achieved the dizzy heights in life of being an Arrse moderator won't prevent me from pointing out that you seem like a gammon shaded, dribbling idiot with very little understanding of this topic.
Ok so resort to name calling, I have plenty of homework on the subject including 3 years in the province so if you cant discuss matters in a sensible matter that marks you down as one of the shouty swivel eyed loons that are the real problem in the province. Lets see now, in the introduction I asked for opinions and ideas and asked for this to be kept polite and sensible. I also stated that it wasn't necessarily my view but a decent argument for or against is needed. If you are too hard of thinking to understand the basic premise of adult mature discussion then may I suggest that you go back to painting kerbstones and hanging flags. If you haven't got any sensible options to propose then perhaps you can step aside and allow those of us who managed to leave school the chance to discuss issues. If its too much for you then perhaps you could just ignore it. Lets face it with the religious make up of the province now showing only 41% protestant this may be coming a whole lot quicker than you would ever imagine in your charger lager fuelled nightmares. Now toddle of down to the lodge and tell the big boys (they'll be the ones who remember all of the words for the sash) that you have been told off and see if they will arrange a hit squad!
You have one more chance then its the ignore button for you!
 
#49
......Of course I still do not comprehend why a people who have fought intermittently for centuries to stop being ruled by Britain but are apparently delighted to be ruled from Brussels by a bunch of French and German politicians so they can provide employment to a bunch of Poles and Lithuanians.
!
We voted ourselves into the EEC, British rule was a result of military conquest. Even so, many people including myself would secretly admit that leaving the UK in 1922 was not in the country's best interests. Our new rulers were mostly economically illiterate and the social problems they created are still with us a century on. It's no coincidence that my parents and my father's parents were among the half million people that emigrated between the end of WW2 and 1960. Joining the EEC after 50 years of poverty-stricken independence was hugely beneficial to Ireland and was essentially an admission that secession from the UK was a mistake. Personally I'm quite happy to be ruled from Brussels and given our own history of migration, we can hardly complain about the people who move here for the work. Apart from anything else the women are generally stunning.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#50
Well so far the three options of home rule, Westminster rule and union with the south are neck and neck but the leader is the call for an independence referendum.
I suppose it would make sense to have a referendum to decide if a referendum on the future status of the province could be and if positive then the various options could be on the table for a follow up. The trick here is no one knows what the future brings, allowing a vote to open the subject for discussion is democratic and will no doubt tease the hell out of the Unionists who have been milking us since Good Friday.
Imagine, do we risk it all on a no future discussion vote or do we open pandoras box in the hope that enough options will be on the table to split the independence/union with the south voters? Then again it could be like PR where multiple choices allow a varied scenario. I can see them fizzing at the thought of the risk.
That said its only hypothetical however something that Labour would possibly see as a good thing!
 
#51
#52
Ok so resort to name calling, I have plenty of homework on the subject including 3 years in the province so if you cant discuss matters in a sensible matter that marks you down as one of the shouty swivel eyed loons that are the real problem in the province. Lets see now, in the introduction I asked for opinions and ideas and asked for this to be kept polite and sensible. I also stated that it wasn't necessarily my view but a decent argument for or against is needed. If you are too hard of thinking to understand the basic premise of adult mature discussion then may I suggest that you go back to painting kerbstones and hanging flags. If you haven't got any sensible options to propose then perhaps you can step aside and allow those of us who managed to leave school the chance to discuss issues. If its too much for you then perhaps you could just ignore it. Lets face it with the religious make up of the province now showing only 41% protestant this may be coming a whole lot quicker than you would ever imagine in your charger lager fuelled nightmares. Now toddle of down to the lodge and tell the big boys (they'll be the ones who remember all of the words for the sash) that you have been told off and see if they will arrange a hit squad!
You have one more chance then its the ignore button for you!
God you are a hoot.

You cry because you perceived my comment to be a rude and non sensible contribution yet you come out with

Now toddle of down to the lodge and tell the big boys (they'll be the ones who remember all of the words for the sash) that you have been told off and see if they will arrange a hit squad!


Now moving on.

I don’t believe a majority in Northern Ireland will vote to leave the United Kingdom anytime soon. I’m pretty sure most nationalists/republicans didn’t believe there’d be a united Ireland anytime soon, either. The issue wasn’t taken seriously in Dublin, even in sotto voce conversations. Yes, there was an acknowledgment that it was possible at some point in the future; but given the Troubles (causes and consequences) was still a ‘live’ issue and the fact that many ‘big ticket’ problems remain unsolved 20 years after the GFA, there was certainly no particular desire in the southern political establishment to rush, let alone push gently, the unity issue. Both London and Dublin — as co-guarantors of the GFA - remain focused on shoring-up good relations between north and south and underpinning the best relationship between London and Dublin there has been in almost a century. And while Sinn Fein talked the talk about the ‘unity project’ they knew that fulfilment of that goal was a long way off; so settled for non-stop campaigns and issue-focusing which allowed them to argue that ‘progress’ to eventual unity was ongoing. Meanwhile, in overall electoral terms, the evidence suggested that the republican/nationalist vote was mostly treading water. Brexit has upended the dynamics: between north and south, between London and Dublin and, crucially, between unionism and nationalism here. It has raised questions about ‘identity,’ particularly for those who were reasonably content to remain within the UK (albeit within the EU) even though they had no fondness for ‘local’ unionism and the DUP. It has forced Ireland to ask very difficult questions about its relationship with the UK post-Brexit, as well as equally difficult questions about the relationship between north and south.

Even with the shift in demographs and the fallout from Brexit — I don’t believe a majority in Northern Ireland will vote to leave the United Kingdom anytime soon. Until the Brexit result I’m pretty sure most nationalists/republicans didn’t believe there’d be a united Ireland anytime soon, either. The issue wasn’t taken seriously in Dublin, even in sotto voce conversations. Yes, there was an acknowledgment that it was possible at some point in the future; but given the Troubles (causes and consequences) was still a ‘live’ issue and the fact that many ‘big ticket’ problems remain unsolved 20 years after the GFA, there was certainly no particular desire in the southern political establishment to rush, let alone push gently, the unity issue. Both London and Dublin — as co-guarantors of the GFA - remain focused on shoring-up good relations between north and south and underpinning the best relationship between London and Dublin there has been in almost a century. And while Sinn Fein talked the talk about the ‘unity project’ they knew that fulfilment of that goal was a long way off; so settled for non-stop campaigns and issue-focusing which allowed them to argue that ‘progress’ to eventual unity was ongoing. Meanwhile, in overall electoral terms, the evidence suggested that the republican/nationalist vote was mostly treading water. Brexit has upended the dynamics: between north and south, between London and Dublin and, crucially, between unionism and nationalism here. It has raised questions about ‘identity,’ particularly for those who were reasonably content to remain within the UK (albeit within the EU) even though they had no fondness for ‘local’ unionism and the DUP. It has forced Ireland to ask very difficult questions about its relationship with the UK post-Brexit, as well as equally difficult questions about the relationship between north and south.

In 1998, in the GFA around 100,000 or so from a pro-Union background - who hadn't voted for years - came out to support the Agreement. But most of them didn't come out a few weeks later for the Assembly election. Are they still about? What is their view on the unity debate and constitutional question? Why don't they vote?

All in all, there is a pretty broad pool of potential voters for unionism to tap into. It needs to do that now. It should have started the process decades ago.

I believe unionism is facing its biggest challenge in almost a century. But I also believe that the pro-Irish unity argument remains a long, long way from success.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
#53
There is a precedent, we got rid of the rest of Ireland in a heartbeat and Carson;s "Protestant State for a Protestant People" was a complete and utter bloody mistake.

NI was left to the bigoted Protestant Establishment with little care or concern of the British State or British people.

The net result was a twisted and nasty little statelet run on the lines of Apartheid South Africa.
The very thing Carson campaigned and warned them against doing. They didn’t listen. He refused the prime ministership and allegedly the last time he visited Belfast was to witness the unveiling of his statue.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#54
God you are a hoot.

You cry because you perceived my comment to be a rude and non sensible contribution yet you come out with

Now toddle of down to the lodge and tell the big boys (they'll be the ones who remember all of the words for the sash) that you have been told off and see if they will arrange a hit squad!


Now moving on.

I don’t believe a majority in Northern Ireland will vote to leave the United Kingdom anytime soon. I’m pretty sure most nationalists/republicans didn’t believe there’d be a united Ireland anytime soon, either. The issue wasn’t taken seriously in Dublin, even in sotto voce conversations. Yes, there was an acknowledgment that it was possible at some point in the future; but given the Troubles (causes and consequences) was still a ‘live’ issue and the fact that many ‘big ticket’ problems remain unsolved 20 years after the GFA, there was certainly no particular desire in the southern political establishment to rush, let alone push gently, the unity issue. Both London and Dublin — as co-guarantors of the GFA - remain focused on shoring-up good relations between north and south and underpinning the best relationship between London and Dublin there has been in almost a century. And while Sinn Fein talked the talk about the ‘unity project’ they knew that fulfilment of that goal was a long way off; so settled for non-stop campaigns and issue-focusing which allowed them to argue that ‘progress’ to eventual unity was ongoing. Meanwhile, in overall electoral terms, the evidence suggested that the republican/nationalist vote was mostly treading water. Brexit has upended the dynamics: between north and south, between London and Dublin and, crucially, between unionism and nationalism here. It has raised questions about ‘identity,’ particularly for those who were reasonably content to remain within the UK (albeit within the EU) even though they had no fondness for ‘local’ unionism and the DUP. It has forced Ireland to ask very difficult questions about its relationship with the UK post-Brexit, as well as equally difficult questions about the relationship between north and south.

Even with the shift in demographs and the fallout from Brexit — I don’t believe a majority in Northern Ireland will vote to leave the United Kingdom anytime soon. Until the Brexit result I’m pretty sure most nationalists/republicans didn’t believe there’d be a united Ireland anytime soon, either. The issue wasn’t taken seriously in Dublin, even in sotto voce conversations. Yes, there was an acknowledgment that it was possible at some point in the future; but given the Troubles (causes and consequences) was still a ‘live’ issue and the fact that many ‘big ticket’ problems remain unsolved 20 years after the GFA, there was certainly no particular desire in the southern political establishment to rush, let alone push gently, the unity issue. Both London and Dublin — as co-guarantors of the GFA - remain focused on shoring-up good relations between north and south and underpinning the best relationship between London and Dublin there has been in almost a century. And while Sinn Fein talked the talk about the ‘unity project’ they knew that fulfilment of that goal was a long way off; so settled for non-stop campaigns and issue-focusing which allowed them to argue that ‘progress’ to eventual unity was ongoing. Meanwhile, in overall electoral terms, the evidence suggested that the republican/nationalist vote was mostly treading water. Brexit has upended the dynamics: between north and south, between London and Dublin and, crucially, between unionism and nationalism here. It has raised questions about ‘identity,’ particularly for those who were reasonably content to remain within the UK (albeit within the EU) even though they had no fondness for ‘local’ unionism and the DUP. It has forced Ireland to ask very difficult questions about its relationship with the UK post-Brexit, as well as equally difficult questions about the relationship between north and south.

In 1998, in the GFA around 100,000 or so from a pro-Union background - who hadn't voted for years - came out to support the Agreement. But most of them didn't come out a few weeks later for the Assembly election. Are they still about? What is their view on the unity debate and constitutional question? Why don't they vote?

All in all, there is a pretty broad pool of potential voters for unionism to tap into. It needs to do that now. It should have started the process decades ago.

I believe unionism is facing its biggest challenge in almost a century. But I also believe that the pro-Irish unity argument remains a long, long way from success.
So you can hold a discussion, welcome to civilisation! I expect its the limitations of Hadrians wall that restricted the spread of civilisation.
Right if its only a majority thats needed then the Unionists are on a loosing stance, they are already no longer the majority and only hold sway by alliance with the minor unionists groups. It wont be long before the effects of population growth nullify those 1960's Gerrymandering practices and you end up being the minority in population and elected office. What then?
Well lets look at the Brexit vote where NI and Scotland voted to stay in by a larger majority than the mainland voted to leave. If joining the Eu and sucking on Brussels tit is on offer and the only access is through independence or union with the south how long do you think that you will get by waving flags? Money holds sway and I have no doubt that if Scotland get the independence they want (and frankly I am for them leaving and feel the rest of the Union should have voted and maybe they would be on their way already) then picking up the tab in NI for a handful of swing votes in the HoC wont be worth it. Labour would probably pay the republic to take you off our hands and herald it as self determination.
You might as well head south now and get signed on down there!
 
#55
The very thing Carson campaigned and warned them against doing. They didn’t listen. He refused the prime ministership and allegedly the last time he visited Belfast was to witness the unveiling of his statue.
Turns out it was James Craig and what he actually said was "All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State " So you've dipped if you are Catholic.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#56
In 1998, in the GFA around 100,000 or so from a pro-Union background - who hadn't voted for years - came out to support the Agreement. But most of them didn't come out a few weeks later for the Assembly election. Are they still about? What is their view on the unity debate and constitutional question? Why don't they vote?
Electoral fraud, voting fatigue? It does happen even here and Birmingham is renowned for electoral fraud.
I'm afraid the colonial past bites everyone in the end. As much as we loved the Irish jokes, white sausage and Ulster fries I'm afraid you really now should stop draining our coffers on the threat of it all kicking off. If as a mature and sincere nation you want to be in charge of your own destiny then you need to look at footing the bill. Frankly we have huge potholes, backed up NHS operations, late running trains and cancelled village bypasses all of which would look better if we weren't funding NI to the tune that we are. In fact you really should be made to live within your means, public expenditure should be limited to tax revenue or at least linked!
That would allow us to see where the money is spent!
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
#57
Turns out it was James Craig and what he actually said was "All I boast of is that we are a Protestant Parliament and a Protestant State " So you've dipped if you are Catholic.

It wasn’t just Catholics, although it was no picnic. Jobs for Protestants went through the Orange order, if you didn’t tug the forelock you were in trouble too.


Things were starting to improve when ONeill became PM and then it all went to shit.

One man one vote affected Protestants too. The extra vote being a business/trade one. . Catholics were entitled to it too. And housing conditions were similar in Belfast whether catholic or Protestant. Just a different slogan on the walls.

Even in the 70s walking through the peace line from one to the other. I expected it to be like a refugee camp. It was exactly the same.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#58
Even in the 70s walking through the peace line from one to the other. I expected it to be like a refugee camp. It was exactly the same.
Shit, however as one of the Leeds lads pointed out in 1983, "The Ballymurphy didn't look half as rough as Middleton" where he lived before joining.
Frankly I have to agree with him, yes the 1970's estates didn't do much but they were still a lot better than we had in Cornwall at the time!
 
#59
Electoral fraud, voting fatigue? It does happen even here and Birmingham is renowned for electoral fraud.
I'm afraid the colonial past bites everyone in the end. As much as we loved the Irish jokes, white sausage and Ulster fries I'm afraid you really now should stop draining our coffers on the threat of it all kicking off. If as a mature and sincere nation you want to be in charge of your own destiny then you need to look at footing the bill. Frankly we have huge potholes, backed up NHS operations, late running trains and cancelled village bypasses all of which would look better if we weren't funding NI to the tune that we are. In fact you really should be made to live within your means, public expenditure should be limited to tax revenue or at least linked!
That would allow us to see where the money is spent!
Tax revenue in NI is about £9bn the cost to UK on top of that is £11bn
 

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