Time to cut Ulster loose?

Should NI be cut loose

  • Time for a province independence referendum

    Votes: 25 31.3%
  • Union with the south

    Votes: 21 26.3%
  • Commonwealth status

    Votes: 9 11.3%
  • Full rule from Westminster

    Votes: 19 23.8%
  • Home rule from Stormont

    Votes: 20 25.0%

  • Total voters
    80

ugly

LE
Moderator
#21
As to NI uniting with the RoI I a not sure the people of the Republic would really like that. Things are pretty good there at the moment and would they really want the headaches of incorporating a population that might resort to violence. Status Quo, perhaps with direct rule from Westminster might be the best solution.
Interestingly the south for many years was seen as a safe haven for bad guys and many hailed from there. Currently there does seem to be a form of direct rule (unless they have kissed and made up again) and independence would see them able to apply to join the Eu although make them open to some of the Eu's policies which being part of the UK they seem largely to have escaped (Mass immigration by refugees to think of one and yes I know it has happened but on a tiny scale).
To quote an Irish boss of mine; "Its a difficult problem" his stock answer for every question by the way!
It's Northern Ireland, not Ulster.
Well the news folk must be dafter than a drunken Irishman, I'm sure I used to watch good evening Ulster every evening!
Semantics, its the place known by a handful of names only a few of them printable in CA!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#22
A totally independent NI probably wouldn't be a viable option. The place is heavily subsidised by England as is so it's unlikely to be able to survive alone.
The cost of the place is one of the reasons could see UK Govt buying it! Labour would love it, just imagine self determination and the loss of votes in the HoC for the Tories.
South of the border, I think a referendum would probably be carried with a significant minority voting No. Which would leave us in a bit of a bind with having to absorb 800,000 píssed off Loyalists into the Republic.
It has always been my view thet the Govt in the South would shy away from the vote hoping that we will pick up the tab ad infinitum whilst allowing themselves to make representations about it without appearing too keen. Independent NI could work, The Baltic states seem to manage so why couldn't they? No doubt the inhabitants would have some sort of free access arrangement to the UK (England and Wales) as part of the deal. I'm not mag to gridding Scotland, just allowing for it just in case.
As to Scotland I wonder if another independence ballot would see a leave vote winning if the mandate extended across the UK. This would also balance the HoC losing a few Labour seats. It would also save the UK taxpayer Tam Dalyells bar bill!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#23
They already are, in all but name, the Scottish parliament, and the welsh assembly, the first tentative steps to total autonomous independence from Westminster, not if, but When!
Agreed, thinking about it, it would be better for England financially if they were allowed a clean break.
 
#24
Nobody is getting "cut loose".

Firstly the majority of citizens of Northern Ireland do not support a UI and secondly the Republic isn’t ready for it.
Brexit changed everything and completely upended the political dynamics on both sides of the border. It changed the nature of the relationship between London and Dublin - leaving it tetchier than it has been for 35 years.

Sinn Fein clearly has a plan for the ‘new’ Ireland: but Sinn Fein doesn’t speak for the Irish government or the Irish people. It doesn’t even speak for a majority in Northern Ireland.



But you try persuading a majority of citzens who proudly identify as British. They will have a new head of state. A new way of being governed. A new currency. A new health service. New political parties. And what, for example, is the constitutional priority of a unionist party in a united Ireland? There isn’t one. The other people involved in all of this are the electorate of the South. They will not want a disgruntled unionism and a whole host of problems to deal with. Let’s not forget, either, that unionists in a united Ireland would form a substantial and important voting bloc and would, inevitably, have an influence in the Dail which could change the internal dynamics in a number of ways – some of which could be surprising.

There are hundreds of questions for Nationalists to address before they can put a case for Northern Ireland seceding from the Union with the UK to join with the Republic of Ireland

What happens to the NHS


Would a United Ireland be a unitary State or would there still be a devolved Stormont?

What happens to Northern Irish civil servants, firemen, police officers etc?

What happens on pensions and benefits?

What about the subvention Northern Ireland receives – could the South afford it?

Will the Union flag be hoisted alongside the Tri Colour on the Dail in the name of parity and equality?

Will there be a new agreed all-Ireland flag?

Will there be a new agreed all-Ireland National Anthem?

Will all citizens be entitled to dual British & Irish citizenship and passports?

What happens to the cross-border bodies?

Will mandatory powersharing be implemented in the Dail?

Will their be an all-Ireland parades commission?

So, no lads- its not as simple as "cutting ulster loose".
Oh and PS, the poll options are retarded.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
#25
I'd still like my resettlement grant. Pension, benefits and leaving bonus, go to my spiritual home of Barcelona.
I'll go quietly.

The rest of you can enjoy the influx of loyalists and 'British people who aren't willing and can't, live under the yoke of an Irish republic'
Flute bands, fascists and bible bashing nut cases. Ex cops, ex soldiers and ex UDR.
It'll certainly liven up the neighbourhood.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#26
I'd still like my resettlement grant. Pension, benefits and leaving bonus, go to my spiritual home of Barcelona.
I'll go quietly.

The rest of you can enjoy the influx of loyalists and 'British people who aren't willing and can't, live under the yoke of an Irish republic'
Flute bands, fascists and bible bashing nut cases. Ex cops, ex soldiers and ex UDR.
It'll certainly liven up the neighbourhood.
In the spirit of Algeria I think Pied Green will be a suitable affectation for our soon to be penniless refugees who no doubt will be house whilst supplementing their dole through subletting their homes in the former province!
 
#30
The cost of the place is one of the reasons could see UK Govt buying it! Labour would love it, just imagine self determination and the loss of votes in the HoC for the Tories.

It has always been my view thet the Govt in the South would shy away from the vote hoping that we will pick up the tab ad infinitum whilst allowing themselves to make representations about it without appearing too keen. Independent NI could work, The Baltic states seem to manage so why couldn't they? No doubt the inhabitants would have some sort of free access arrangement to the UK (England and Wales) as part of the deal. I'm not mag to gridding Scotland, just allowing for it just in case.
As to Scotland I wonder if another independence ballot would see a leave vote winning if the mandate extended across the UK. This would also balance the HoC losing a few Labour seats. It would also save the UK taxpayer Tam Dalyells bar bill!
Although this is was written tongue-in-cheek and risks a thread drift, I would like to point out that Tam Dalyell left the HoC in 2005 and has been dead for more than 2 years.
 

skid2

LE
Book Reviewer
#31
In the spirit of Algeria I think Pied Green will be a suitable affectation for our soon to be penniless refugees who no doubt will be house whilst supplementing their dole through subletting their homes in the former province!
A holiday home on the Woodvale. I remember a very long conversation when someone attempted to convince me it was the respectable bit of the Shankill and people wonder why I drink.
 
#32
I'd still like my resettlement grant. Pension, benefits and leaving bonus, go to my spiritual home of Barcelona.
I'll go quietly.

The rest of you can enjoy the influx of loyalists and 'British people who aren't willing and can't, live under the yoke of an Irish republic'
Flute bands, fascists and bible bashing nut cases. Ex cops, ex soldiers and ex UDR.
It'll certainly liven up the neighbourhood
.
Sounds alarmingly like North Ayrshire.
 
#33
They already are, in all but name, the Scottish parliament, and the welsh assembly, the first tentative steps to total autonomous independence from Westminster, not if, but When!
The Welsh Assembly would never push to be independent from the UK, it's a massive gravy train and they know if being left to their own devices the cashflow would stop pretty sharpish.
It's there to give mongs the illusion of self determination whilst those with their snouts in the trough gorge themselves.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#34
My comments in italics, bearing in mind I am not a civil servant nor the PM.
Nobody is getting "cut loose".
You can say that now but in ten years time? Self determination, the siren call of independance
Firstly the majority of citizens of Northern Ireland do not support a UI and secondly the Republic isn’t ready for it.
Brexit changed everything and completely upended the political dynamics on both sides of the border. It changed the nature of the relationship between London and Dublin - leaving it tetchier than it has been for 35 years.
At the moment they dont but how long will that majority last? As for upsetting dynamics, the Island has been doing that since the scots took a look and said hey there are less midgies over there!
Sinn Fein clearly has a plan for the ‘new’ Ireland: but Sinn Fein doesn’t speak for the Irish government or the Irish people. It doesn’t even speak for a majority in Northern Ireland.
Again for long will the majority be the same, demographics change as do views, its not only SF that want a united Ireland
But you try persuading a majority of citzens who proudly identify as British. They will have a new head of state. A new way of being governed. A new currency. A new health service. New political parties. And what, for example, is the constitutional priority of a unionist party in a united Ireland? There isn’t one. The other people involved in all of this are the electorate of the South. They will not want a disgruntled unionism and a whole host of problems to deal with. Let’s not forget, either, that unionists in a united Ireland would form a substantial and important voting bloc and would, inevitably, have an influence in the Dail which could change the internal dynamics in a number of ways – some of which could be surprising.
Details to be worked out, I suspect the unionists will bow to the Euro as the bowed to the pound when time for peace came. There is no reason the south could not be brought up to match the north in services and vice versa.
There are hundreds of questions for Nationalists to address before they can put a case for Northern Ireland seceding from the Union with the UK to join with the Republic of Ireland
I'm not suggesting now although it would make Brexit simpler for the mainland and also deflect some flack from the current administration.
What happens to the NHS
No reason it cant continue to exist, the population needs to pay for it

Would a United Ireland be a unitary State or would there still be a devolved Stormont?
Options to be offered at referendum

What happens to Northern Irish civil servants, firemen, police officers etc?
No reason not to be absorbed and integrated really. Eu law on TUPE should cover this.
What happens on pensions and benefits?
See TUPE Laws above, after that I suspect some pensions are protected in Eu law and can be transferred.

What about the subvention Northern Ireland receives – could the South afford it?
The UK cant, its a massive bribe to keep the peace, something they need to look at the Eu for.
Will the Union flag be hoisted alongside the Tri Colour on the Dail in the name of parity and equality?
Frankly I dont care, by this point I will be sat with popcorn watching it all fall apart, really the issue of a flag is so typical Unionist and the Labour Govt will brandish them as racists and pull out even quicker. Assuming Labour get in and implement this horror scenario?
Will there be a new agreed all-Ireland flag?
Something for the citizens of Ireland to discuss?
Will there be a new agreed all-Ireland National Anthem?
See above
Will all citizens be entitled to dual British & Irish citizenship and passports?
I suspect some folk may be entitled access to the mainland unfettered but many are anyway from the Republic due to treaties going back nearly 100 years
What happens to the cross-border bodies?
If there is no longer a border I detect some cost savings here, if a border remains then what was the question again?
Will mandatory powersharing be implemented in the Dail?
The rest of Europe operates something called democracy, if the folk in the north want to keep the gerrymandered statu quo then they need to go for full independence or a German form of PR.
Will their be an all-Ireland parades commission?
Will you need one, surely you'll all live happily ever after? Frankly all that marching up and down is a bit outdated and needs looking at in the manner we look at Morris Dancing!

So, no lads- its not as simple as "cutting ulster loose".
Oh and PS, the poll options are retarded.
If they are retarded then offer some of your own, its not if but when, the province is a financial drain beyond any perceived benefit. There will come a time (especially now Princess Tony has secured peace (Ha ha) ) that we will start to look at the numbers and if the Scots go then we will have to consider it seriously, so instead of naysaying come up with something a bit more palatable and think on this, eventually the majority will be on the other foot and you may have no choice.
 
#35
The cost of the place is one of the reasons could see UK Govt buying it! Labour would love it, just imagine self determination and the loss of votes in the HoC for the Tories.

It has always been my view thet the Govt in the South would shy away from the vote hoping that we will pick up the tab ad infinitum whilst allowing themselves to make representations about it without appearing too keen. Independent NI could work, The Baltic states seem to manage so why couldn't they? No doubt the inhabitants would have some sort of free access arrangement to the UK (England and Wales) as part of the deal. I'm not mag to gridding Scotland, just allowing for it just in case.
As to Scotland I wonder if another independence ballot would see a leave vote winning if the mandate extended across the UK. This would also balance the HoC losing a few Labour seats. It would also save the UK taxpayer Tam Dalyells bar bill!
Are we still paying that off?

He died last year.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#36
I wonder what the true statistics are?
I used to love winding up the naafi staff in Omagh pointing out that whilst they held a UK passport they weren't british, it said so on the cover!
Yup alcohol was to blame but never let common sense get in the way of winding someone up!
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
#37
#38
Nobody is getting "cut loose".

Firstly the majority of citizens of Northern Ireland do not support a UI and secondly the Republic isn’t ready for it.
Brexit changed everything and completely upended the political dynamics on both sides of the border. It changed the nature of the relationship between London and Dublin - leaving it tetchier than it has been for 35 years.

Sinn Fein clearly has a plan for the ‘new’ Ireland: but Sinn Fein doesn’t speak for the Irish government or the Irish people. It doesn’t even speak for a majority in Northern Ireland.



But you try persuading a majority of citzens who proudly identify as British. They will have a new head of state. A new way of being governed. A new currency. A new health service. New political parties. And what, for example, is the constitutional priority of a unionist party in a united Ireland? There isn’t one. The other people involved in all of this are the electorate of the South. They will not want a disgruntled unionism and a whole host of problems to deal with. Let’s not forget, either, that unionists in a united Ireland would form a substantial and important voting bloc and would, inevitably, have an influence in the Dail which could change the internal dynamics in a number of ways – some of which could be surprising.

There are hundreds of questions for Nationalists to address before they can put a case for Northern Ireland seceding from the Union with the UK to join with the Republic of Ireland

What happens to the NHS


Would a United Ireland be a unitary State or would there still be a devolved Stormont?

What happens to Northern Irish civil servants, firemen, police officers etc?

What happens on pensions and benefits?

What about the subvention Northern Ireland receives – could the South afford it?

Will the Union flag be hoisted alongside the Tri Colour on the Dail in the name of parity and equality?

Will there be a new agreed all-Ireland flag?

Will there be a new agreed all-Ireland National Anthem?

Will all citizens be entitled to dual British & Irish citizenship and passports?

What happens to the cross-border bodies?

Will mandatory powersharing be implemented in the Dail?

Will their be an all-Ireland parades commission?

So, no lads- its not as simple as "cutting ulster loose".
Oh and PS, the poll options are retarded.
I could be wrong, but I'm guessing you are a problem finder, not a problem solver? Bring me solutions not problems!

Which strangely reminds me of NI, in that nothing was (is) ever right, because "the other lot"* came up with the idea.

* Both "lots" are as bad as each other, and need to grow TFU!
 
#40
It's Northern Ireland, not Ulster.

A totally independent NI probably wouldn't be a viable option. The place is heavily subsidised by England as is so it's unlikely to be able to survive alone.

SF routinely call for a Border Poll these days, especially since the Brexit vote. They seem to think that the fact that the majority in NI voted remain translates to a majority voting themselves out of the UK. I think they might be disappointed at the result of such a referendum.

South of the border, I think a referendum would probably be carried with a significant minority voting No. Which would leave us in a bit of a bind with having to absorb 800,000 píssed off Loyalists into the Republic.
A good run out for your Defence Forces reinforced by the Bundeswehr and Armee de Terre though...

That might prove interesting!
 

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