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Time to bin CBRN Instruction at the RTCs?

#1
Or scale it right back?

Given that the main effort of RTCs is to turn SUTs into something that with further input can be sent to Afghanistan. I am starting to question the relevance of CBRN instruction, particularly in the detail delivered.

The current threat is not known to have any capability and the time available at RTCs is very limited, so why train as if Ivan the Gasman was still waiting to send his stuff over the IGB?

Those days are long gone yet we train as if it was still a credible threat.

Scale the training down to the chemical safety rule, donning and doffing and leave anything else to RTMC at most.

SHOULD the threat change, I'd expect that a relevant package could be delivered with a short course ( < a week ) if required.

Even using CBRN as background / concurrent activity on a range package impacts negatively if you have say 15 lanes but cannot use them all due to the cadre being split. Waste of the facility, and I'm sure ITG would rather have decent shots than CBRN meisters.

Thoughts?
 
#2
I've heard rumours that is what's happening in the near future, CBRN scaled down to the very basics, C&E and IA&ID with C-IED training to take its place....only a rumour mind
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#3
CBRN is always a subject paid lip service to at best. It is not until you start to really ramp up the training when faced with a threat (Saudi in 1990, Kuwait in 2003) that you realise just how token the training had been uptil then and how much you still had to learn.

Doing the very basics only and accepting the need to ramp up training prior to deployment should be enough for all but those with a CBRN specific element to their role.
 
F

fozzy

Guest
#4
Or scale it right back?

Given that the main effort of RTCs is to turn SUTs into something that with further input can be sent to Afghanistan. I am starting to question the relevance of CBRN instruction, particularly in the detail delivered.

The current threat is not known to have any capability and the time available at RTCs is very limited, so why train as if Ivan the Gasman was still waiting to send his stuff over the IGB?

Those days are long gone yet we train as if it was still a credible threat.

Scale the training down to the chemical safety rule, donning and doffing and leave anything else to RTMC at most.

SHOULD the threat change, I'd expect that a relevant package could be delivered with a short course ( < a week ) if required.

Even using CBRN as background / concurrent activity on a range package impacts negatively if you have say 15 lanes but cannot use them all due to the cadre being split. Waste of the facility, and I'm sure ITG would rather have decent shots than CBRN meisters.

Thoughts?
All sensible stuff. I think in these times of severe financial austerity, unless your specific mission demands CBRN training to a high level, all CBRN capability should be scaled back to just the JNBC Regt at Honnington. They can be the SMEs and keep the flame alive. We then have a regeneration nucleus should the threat ever change.
 
#5
What a cracking Idea just teach the nods how to put the kit on correctly and how to get there mask on in 9 seconds, then push them through the chamber so they know if they have put it on right and bin everything else till you deploy to a theater where you need it. I personally never paid much attention to it untill getting to kuwait in 2003
 
#6
Alot of blokes that went through training after me have had next to no CBRN trg - I think I was on one of the last ** adult entry courses to do the "full" (phase one) syllabus.

Edit: **Regular
 
#7
B_B, as you are at the heart of training SUTs take heart that my Regt was whinged at by Bde when it did CBRN in detail for half a day on camp. The 'old and bold' and TELIC (no number!) vets were all over it for obvious reasons. As for the rest of us? Well we were all very surprised that after donning the full rig running around and doing 'simple' tasks in the summer heat became much more difficult. Who'd have thunk it, eh?

CBRN? Pump. Getting MATT 9 instructors looks to be our next main effort training wise.
 
#8
Bin it for now. The phase 1 syllabus is far too crowded and CBRN is not really relevant at the moment. I went through all of phase 1, inf w/e 7-9 and CIC without doing a single BCD lesson but I got plenty of CBRN, Values and Standards, theory of Physical training and other stuff that really could each be scaled down to a one hour "be aware of this" lesson.
 
#9
A decent CBRNI would make sure that his Matt 4 training was relevant and suited to the current operational commitments. Any CBRNIs out there who are stuck for lesson ideas need to look at Toxic Industrial Chemicals (TIC) and Release Other Than Attack (ROTA) of which there have been regular and fatal occurrences pretty much every year since the Balkan deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan. If a CBRNI is stuck for ideas, examples and lesson plans then they can just look at the news, speak to people coming out of theatre and keep an eye on the news.

Being a CBRNI is a beautiful thing and frankly not enough people are getting the most of the S10s before they're replaced. You really need to get the CS to work for you.
 
#10
myself, a CBRNI and CDC qual inst, this subject is much, ignored.
TIC'S are a major concern,
do we all remember the panic before telic ?
just beacause terry may not have, the real deal, he does have acces to industrial waste..............
drop matt 4..............
watch the panic start when we need CBRNI'S, AND THE SKILL FADE has slipped into skill loss !!!!!!!!!!!!
 
#11
A decent CBRNI would make sure that his Matt 4 training was relevant and suited to the current operational commitments. Any CBRNIs out there who are stuck for lesson ideas need to look at Toxic Industrial Chemicals (TIC) and Release Other Than Attack (ROTA) of which there have been regular and fatal occurrences pretty much every year since the Balkan deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan. If a CBRNI is stuck for ideas, examples and lesson plans then they can just look at the news, speak to people coming out of theatre and keep an eye on the news.

Being a CBRNI is a beautiful thing and frankly not enough people are getting the most of the S10s before they're replaced. You really need to get the CS to work for you.
Of course, any decent CBRNI will understand the limitations of current military CBRN clothing and the issue canister in anything but a war fighting scenario - for which they are been designed.
 
#12
CBRN should be canned on the TA CMS- the time saved would be far better used bolstering up other areas eg on the ranges, fitness, SAA etc. I have been saying this for years, mainly because it bores the cr*p out of me.
 
#13
CBRN should be canned on the TA CMS- the time saved would be far better used bolstering up other areas eg on the ranges, fitness, SAA etc. I have been saying this for years, mainly because it bores the cr*p out of me.
The more inventive CBRNI will combine fitness with Matt 4 training. Its a win-win situation and lends to unforgettable training sessions. People join up to do CBRN, I'm sure of it.

Whilst the canisters and protective clothing isn't gonna be much cop against TIC & ROTA, I'd rather my mates new about contamination/decontamination and recognised the signs of chemical attack. Rather than watching them scratch their eyes out in pain.
 
#14
Try being a responder on a police CBRN Recce Team. Total pump. Training amounting to 3 days a year,and expected to respond to live jobs on your local policing unit. Still, when the ACPOlitburo meet and and ratify the grain harvest and the next 5 year plan, they can tick the CBRN box, and all's well.

Rumour has it they're replacing the Quick Don CBRN with a new version. It's called the Mk1 Emperor's New Clothes.
 
#15
Try being a responder on a police CBRN Recce Team. Total pump. Training amounting to 3 days a year,and expected to respond to live jobs on your local policing unit. Still, when the ACPOlitburo meet and and ratify the grain harvest and the next 5 year plan, they can tick the CBRN box, and all's well.

Rumour has it they're replacing the Quick Don CBRN with a new version. It's called the Mk1 Emperor's New Clothes.
Sounds a nightmare, all those times you've had to deal with nerve agent and all. I honestly sleep soundly at night because of people such as yourself, my hat is truly doffed.
 
#16
i was referring to the waste of time that the trg is; i wasn't claiming to be some fandangle CBRN ninja . crack on with the jibes though, water....ducks back etc
 
#17
The people who get a hard on over cbrn need serious help from a trick cyclist make it Mission Specific Training for if and when its needed for each deployment if there is no threat no need to teach it apart from the werdos that want to do the course saves money see all helps towards not canning some more needed parts of the army
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#18
You see - all of that CBRN training makes you totally incapable of forming sentences or using basic punctuation.

Terrible stuff, and the sooner we drop it the better for all of us.
 

chrisg46

LE
Book Reviewer
#19
been in a fair few years now, and apart from Tuesdaynights and the practical matt tst,never done an exercise with even cbrn element. Not relevant to todays army.
 
#20
The more inventive CBRNI will combine fitness with Matt 4 training. Its a win-win situation and lends to unforgettable training sessions. People join up to do CBRN, I'm sure of it.

Whilst the canisters and protective clothing isn't gonna be much cop against TIC & ROTA, I'd rather my mates new about contamination/decontamination and recognised the signs of chemical attack. Rather than watching them scratch their eyes out in pain.
I take it you are being tongue-in-cheek, followed by serious! CBRN training would only be any use if you were carrying your full cbrn kit, in the COE I have yet to see anyone carrying any such kit hence the training would be wasted. We could carry the kit..... along with the Osprey, ammo, barma/ kala, med and casevac, radios etc but then again the local populus would laugh at us even more. We could also carry heavy, armour plated umbrellas incase rocks fell from the sky and flutes should we need to win favour with a difficult child... and the list goes on. I am being cynical but I m sure you get my drift...
 

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