"Time Off" on Annual Camp

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#1
Now I know I've been in a while, and done 20+ Camps, but I am still not certain about the rules - if any exist - for getting a day off, or even half a day off, during Camp. Most Bn/Regt Camps programme one in, unless they are part of a Very Big Exercise. Every course I have been on certainly has free time written in - usually the middle weekend

Does any of the assembled ARRSE brain power know if there are any reules and regs on this?

Reason = Our half-day off this year was cancelled - after the exercise began - by a Big Cheese as we "are here to work". I can't help thinking that this has not done my Sub-Unit retention any good whatsoever, but in this case I can only do what I am ordered.
 
#2
This is from TA Regs On Armynet.

2.082.


a.


An average of at least 6 hours work a day, including Saturdays and Sundays, is to be carried out during annual in camp training, or during an attachment to a Regular Army unit or to another TA unit or to the headquarters of an individual’s own unit

:cry: Looks Like we are not entitled to one :cry:
 
#3
We got exactly the same. New CO "you are here to provide training not here to have time off. If you need to work on Sunday (the R&R day) for next week then so be it, you'll have time off next Monday when you get back".

No we won't, we have civvie jobs and have 2 weeks work to catch up on.
 
#4
I've heard that attitude expressed towards PSIs from Regular CO's, and the odd comment from an embittered Training Major towards the TA troops... :)

I do think it all depends upon the training. I don't think I've ever been on a course that didn't have some time off built into it, even if it was only half a day.

Annual Unit exercises are different - I'm sure everyone who has attended a UK/Germany FTX has found that their "day" off has varied quitel wildly, but I don't think I've ever been on an FTX that didn't allow at least a half day.
 
G

Goku

Guest
#5
I didn’t get any time off on my annual camp either, I’m not complaining though I was trade training, 2 weeks almost felt like a rushed job.
We more than made up for it in the evenings though :- a few (yeah right :D ) drinks in the NAAFI each night and 3 nights on the piss in town, even saw one of my old PSIs’ in the local strip bar :lol:
 
#6
sweatysock said:
An average of at least 6 hours work a day, including Saturdays and Sundays, is to be carried out during annual in camp training
I'd love to do a 6 hours working during camp, thought it started @ 0630 and finished around 2000!

Goku said:
even saw one of my old PSIs’ in the local strip bar :lol:
Was he a better stripper than a PSI :lol:
 
#8
sweatysock said:
This is from TA Regs On Armynet.

2.082.


a.


An average of at least 6 hours work a day, including Saturdays and Sundays, is to be carried out during annual in camp training, or during an attachment to a Regular Army unit or to another TA unit or to the headquarters of an individual’s own unit

:cry: Looks Like we are not entitled to one :cry:
Note the important wording: an AVERAGE of at least 6 hours per day with this time frame to include Saturdays and Sundays. Translated into civvy speak, this means a minimum of 42 hours per week. If you work as little as 7 hours per day, then the Regs allow for a full day off per week - i.e. 2 R&R days over the course of a 15 day Camp. As ever, getting time off during Camp is a priviledge, not a right and will depend on the workload. Switched-on bosses should be able to balance the work with getting maximum efficiency by resting the troops. Not getting at least one day off shows that either your bosses don't have the interest of the troops at heart (bad management) or have themselves been spammed by such a higher boss. Bitching between officers unfortunately ultimately ends up with the lower echelons taking the brunt.

In my lot, it falls to the SNCOs to ensure that at least the JRs get time off, even though SSgts and above often have to work through. While not the ideal, we don't gripe as our forebears took the same line and we hope that the upcoming SNCOs will have the same regard for their lambs.
 
#9
Jagythistle said:
We got exactly the same. New CO "you are here to provide training not here to have time off. If you need to work on Sunday (the R&R day) for next week then so be it, you'll have time off next Monday when you get back".
On a slight tangent, does anyone else get a bit annoyed by the complete lack of a headshed on Mondays? "It's our only day off, you guys only have to work the weekend" etc etc.
 
#11
The point isn't whether we should get R&R or not, the point is you don't suddenly drop it from the program. You don't take away rewards! It is a minor thing but it affects morale in a big way. I'm fcuking angry and I wasn't there.
If any of you fcuking stupid cnuts are reading this I have 3 words RETENTION! RETENTION! RETENTION!

You just don't fcuking get it do ya! Can't wait til I'm back in the Battalion, jeez I'm gonna be a real pain in the arrse!
 
#12
putteesinmyhands said:
Note the important wording: an AVERAGE of at least 6 hours per day with this time frame to include Saturdays and Sundays.
I seem to recall a "no more than 10% time off" caveat; which means no more than 1.5 days over an Annual Camp.

Something similar caused a huge stramash at one of our Bn OTXs in France; Trg Maj (lovely bloke, but not exactly a Black Belt in "stunning training") had pushed hard to get the attendance up; big sales drive from PSIs, CO, and Trg Maj, marketed on the 48hr R&R package, and the 48hr Adv Trg package. This being the height of summer in the South of France, the outline "green" programme was "day starts at 6am, finishes at 4pm".

Several things then went wrong... Fmn HQ decided that there was too little green training going on. Maybe they were still f***ed off at the CO for pointing out to the visiting Sec of State the lunacy of Div planning on a road move for all Pax, from Scotland to the Massif Central of France 8O, rather than chartering an aircraft (only a hundred grand or so, and not much more than the alternative of three days loss of usable MTDs for 400 all ranks, with the retention benefits of those days spent on a bus rather than on training. A cynic would suggest, however, that buses are easier to organise for a Div G4 in search of the easy life).

So, the Trg Maj had his programme red-inked by Div, some other nightmares happened, and when the Jocks got to the OTX they suddenly discovered that they were working from 6am until 5pm (in 35C heat and cloudless skies - I felt for the chefs, they were working in a 45C cookhouse). The hierarchy discovered that a Trg Conf at 5, a 2ic's Conf at 7, and the resulting OCs conferences at 8pm or so truly f***ed up the day. Oh, and the 30hrs off after the FTX found us in the middle of nowhere, with not enough time to actually achieve much. While (all credit to the Trg Maj) a pretty decent Adv Trg opportunity was laid on during the R&R day, he got all humpty when the takeup rate was low. Funnily enough after a three-day FTX in blistering heat, the Jocks wanted to get their heads down, do their dhobi, and bugger off down the pub instead of spending a day charging around in the sun.

The whole thing was a massive blow to credibility for Bn HQ at grass roots - the message was very definitely "don't trust them, they'll lie to you". Bn-level training attendance suffered for years afterwards. Having spent a huge amount of time trying to explain what had happened, talk down the doomsayers, make the best of it, and cheer people up, I can assure you that nailing jelly to a wall would have had a better chance of success.

The moral of the story? Never, never sell what you can't guarantee to deliver.

Still, I did manage to fake up a "Health and Safety" warning on the dangers of local Dihydrogen Monoxide presence on French training areas (think about it - http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html ) and sneaked it into the CO's in-tray with some amusing expletives when he read it. Even if the Chiefy did prevent it hitting Part One orders.
 
#13
Gravelbelly said:
Still, I did manage to fake up a "Health and Safety" warning on the dangers of local Dihydrogen Monoxide presence on French training areas (think about it - http://www.dhmo.org/facts.html ) and sneaked it into the CO's in-tray with some amusing expletives when he read it. Even if the Chiefy did prevent it hitting Part One orders.
LOL! That's awesome... I've so many 'Green' friends I'm going to scare the living bejeesus out of them with this!
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#14
Dear All -

thanks for all the advice, and even the TA Regs. The problem is, I'm afraid, that we are now part of the One Army, except.... when we're not.

By that I mean things like the subject of this thread. I know that Regs do far longer exercises than 2 weeks, but they don't as a rule go to work again on the Monday, clearing their backlog from the '2 weeks away playing soldiers".

And don't get me started about the Monday off for 'TOIL' - time off in lieu. Or the Golf Afternoons (Days, usually). Or the compulsory Adv Trg for all Permanent Staff. Or the 'I will claim for every last penny via MMA, etc. But you can't 'cos you're TA'.


Oh well, things haven't changed that much, have they? As I mentioned on an earlier thread, ignorance of TA Regs is astonishing. In this case, the ignorance is mine as well, but I will ensure that, in the PXR, these points are brought out fully - and forcibly.
 
#16
Surely - if your CO had his brain in gear - he'd realise that this isn't just about what regulations say he can or can't do.

For me, the "day off" isn't just about giving people a break, it serves a serious military / unit purpose as well. One of the keys to high attendance and retention is that people make their best friends in the TA - and the day off (the the conseqent events that go down in unit folklore!) helps to start / develop / cement those friendships and "unit cohesion".
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#17
Crossed Axes -

To be fair, it's not my CO, as we were attached to anonther Bn for this exercise. We (is it only my corps?) appear to be suffering though, in general, from a number of Regular COs who, now that a TA Command Appointment is not quite the second-best that it used to be, are going all out to impress in their Tour and to hell with the troops.

I do hope that this is my jaundiced view, nad not a general one.
 
#19
Annual Camp, 1980 at Sennybridge.

The CO decided that the battalion deploy full eight-man sections into the field on Sunday morning for five days of criss-crossing the training area to visit ranges/stands run by the PSI's - IBSR, CQB, Section in Defence, wiring and mining, grenade, 84mm MAW, 66mm LAW, First Aid, NBC, River Crossing etc. etc. If you didn't cheat (cadge a lift off passing CQMS wagons) you covered about 120 miles in five days - Bolloxville USA. Back into camp Thursday night to pack up and load vehicles to drive to Salisbury Plain on Friday to take part in a 2 Inf. Bde. exercise in which our battalion was reserved bridge dems guard - sat by a bailey bridge blocked by a 10 ton truck for next 7 days with just one attack from Ghurkas dropped in by choppers. No day off, no Mess Dinners, no Officers vs. Sgts Mess 'Football ' Match, no Company Smokers, in short no nothing, no how, no where (ironically kit list told us to bring our civvies) . End result - 30-40% of battalion handed its kit in and CO went on to get OBE in New Years Honours List - often wondered if he would have got knighted if he was able to pXss a few more lads off. 25 years on we don't seem to have progressed far........ :roll:

Retain (verb) - To keep possesion of; To hold on to; Not to lose. Not abolish, discard or alter. Keep in Place. Secure the services of a person.

Retention: (noun) - The act or instance of retaining, the state of being retained.

Source: The Concise Oxford English Dictionary.

Suggest the above dictionary definitions should be cut out and kept for future reference :twisted:
 
#20
There were two very different "Lion" exercises

The first one , was "work very fcuking hard, don't fcuk about and you'll see the benefits"

Battalion worked very very hard,05.00 starts even when the heat index was in the sillies , benefits included Tunnel beach and Limmassol got a hammering on at least 4 occasions. 2 days R+R in the package as well. Big Billy Bonus , and the troops gave it 120%.

2nd Lion - Arrive , get changed into Dessies in big shed, straight into exercise, work work work ."Work hard you'll see the benefits" which were half a day off, NOCAN rule in effect too

Yes lots of people sacked it after that.

'You're here to work not have a jolly' tends to come from new CO's making a 'point' , in my opinion.

Then again, you may be lucky enough to get a CO like the current DirTrainingEstates, who is just a wonderful human being :D
 
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