Time for public perception to take a dive for the Army?

#61
Maybe I'm out of date, but I thought the presumption in the British judicial system was innocent until proven, beyond reasonable doubt, guilty. I think people may be jumping the gun a tad.
 
#62
Is this CGS speech going to turn into another Schrodinger's Snowflake Army recruitment campaign situation, when most of the "yoof" says its great, whilst the old and bold say its bollocks/not in my day etc?
 

Auld-Yin

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#64
Maybe I'm out of date, but I thought the presumption in the British judicial system was innocent until proven, beyond reasonable doubt, guilty. I think people may be jumping the gun a tad.
Including the CGS?
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
#65
PR Consultants have a range of stances available for the enthusiastic poser. You'd think that CGS would have resisted their instructions, though.
View attachment 386701
And the roaring, don't forget to roar...

(from Blackadder III, "Sense and Senility")

The Prince's Lounge
-------------------
(The Prince is practicing his heroic stance and face.)

M: Excellent. And now, sir, at last, the speech.

PR: Right. (unfolds his speech and prepares to read it) Ahemm..

K: No, no, no, no... Your Royal Highness. What have you forgotten?

PR: Oh now look, if I stand any more heroically than *this*, I'm in danger of seriously disappointing my future Queen.

K: No, no, Your Highness, not the stance... the roar.

PR: You want me to roar?

M: Well, of course we wish you to roar. All the great orators roar before commencing with their speeches. It is the way of things. Ah, Mr. Keanrick, from your Hamlet, please.

K: Hh-hmm... (orates) OOOOoooohhhhh... To be or not to be.

M: From your Julius Caesar.

K: OoooHHHHOOOOHHH... Friends, Romans, countrymen...

(Blackadder enters, carrying a tray.)

M: From your leading character, in a play connected with Scotland.

E: That's Macbeth, isn't it?

As: Aahhhhh! Hot potato, off his drawers, pluck to make amends. Owwwwww!!!!!
 
#66
Errrrm, no, it's never permissible to finish off a casualty. We're not the Totenkopf.
Errrm, no. It bloody well is if the casualty is still a threat. Obviously I didn’t see the footage but perhaps the Colonel considered the guy to be either still a threat or not a casualty.
We’re not the Salvation Army.
 
#67
And the roaring, don't forget to roar...

(from Blackadder III, "Sense and Senility")

The Prince's Lounge
-------------------
(The Prince is practicing his heroic stance and face.)

M: Excellent. And now, sir, at last, the speech.

PR: Right. (unfolds his speech and prepares to read it) Ahemm..

K: No, no, no, no... Your Royal Highness. What have you forgotten?

PR: Oh now look, if I stand any more heroically than *this*, I'm in danger of seriously disappointing my future Queen.

K: No, no, Your Highness, not the stance... the roar.

PR: You want me to roar?

M: Well, of course we wish you to roar. All the great orators roar before commencing with their speeches. It is the way of things. Ah, Mr. Keanrick, from your Hamlet, please.

K: Hh-hmm... (orates) OOOOoooohhhhh... To be or not to be.

M: From your Julius Caesar.

K: OoooHHHHOOOOHHH... Friends, Romans, countrymen...

(Blackadder enters, carrying a tray.)

M: From your leading character, in a play connected with Scotland.

E: That's Macbeth, isn't it?

As: Aahhhhh! Hot potato, off his drawers, pluck to make amends. Owwwwww!!!!!
Swine. I was about to write up the 'nipples out' bit:

Why, your very posture tells me, "Here is a man of true greatness."

Bal: Are you sure they meant it, sir?
BA: Quite sure, Baldrick, how far apart were their legs?
Bal: Oh, this far. (spreads his legs)
BA: And their nipples?
Bal: That far. (indicates on his chest)
 
#68
So we've had:

1. Some Paras shooting at a poster

2. Allegations of sexual assault

3. A big ******* rant by CGS, effectively making it look like the Army is full of rapists, criminals and general bad bastards.

We all know that the public perception and popularity of the Army (We don't count the Navy and RAF 'cos Joe Public don't give a shit about them) comes and goes with the passing of the tide. Best summed up by Kipling with the poem 'Tommy'.

In recent times, we've had the full support of the country as we went through Telic and Herrick. Yes, there may have been lots of opposition to us being in Iraq in the first place, but most of them were Vegans so their opinion didn't matter.

2007 saw not only the end of major hostilities in Iraq after the JAM were brought onside and they stopped rocketing the shit out of us, but also the founding of Help for Heroes which, whilst it seems intent on helping people with convictions for rape and sexual assault get houses, did a powerhouse of PR work and really brought the country behind us. You couldn't ******* fart without having a H4H Sponsorship sheet for it (though by being so saturated, H4H in itself started to cause damage to our reputation because it made people frankly sick of the ******* concept of H4H and the 'poor soldiers who need our help.).

Herrick helped our cause as well, mainly because of the kinetic nature and the losses sustained. People again disagreed with us being there, but regardless how and why we were there, this nation struggles to be anything other than supportive and full of kindness when its boys are coming back in boxes - because we know that the lads and lassies out fighting are just that, lads and lassies and someone's son or daughter.

With the draw down from Herrick, the public lost interest as it does in these scenarios, and the Army was more or less forgot about. Many people didn't even know until the latest one about the Para's that we actually still had troops out there.

We've also had the latest round of radio and news exposure about Bloody Sunday and calls to revisit it all over again as well, which stirs lots of old and painful memories.

So is it time for public perception to swing against us? Certainly there's enough here to start some key groups thinking about how they perceive us and as I've mentioned elsewhere, the CGS rant, because let's be honest, that's what it is, is not only embarrassing, it also gives the impression (as people who have no connection to the forces have told me) that the army is full of horrible bastards who need to be publicly reprimanded, and I think to be fair, the CGS video does more reputational damage, than the first two incidents put together.

A good marker for how we're currently being viewed is The Sun newspaper. If it's screaming about us, then it's tough times ahead. As it is, these stories only got minimal exposure on their site.

So, thoughts? Having gone from supportive, to a lull, can we see there being a subtle change in attitude towards the Army again, as we've seen time and time before?

Note, this isn't a place to discuss the Paras or the allegation of sexual assault, other threads are out there for that. The CGS rant is fair game though, because I do truly believe it completely skews the public perception of us.
Ive just been reading about this, are the Para grown ups really gonna allow the binning of 4 experienced Paras for what amounts to a prank? Wont the Army issue a collective F**k you?? if they are sacked for this, then what next?
 
#69
I notice he says we can still have a sense of humour, so as long you think shooting at a picture of magic grandad is funny you should be OK......
 
#70
Including the CGS?
I can imagine prospective lawyers for those arrested are already preparing arguments that their clients have had their case prejudiced by the actions of the CGS.

Should any or all of the accused be innocent the CGS's intervention could quite easily be catastrophic for both their careers and mental health. Not a very well thought through intervention at all.
 
#71
Maybe it’s not the public changing tack, but the Army themselves.

For the past 15-20 years, we’ve had Iraq and Afghanistan that has generally kept people out of trouble, due to everyone being out of the country and busy all the time.

Now there is **** all to do, it’s time to revert to being cnuts again. Get pissed up, trash the local town, do some raping that sort of thing.

Wars and deployments don’t make the general public love squaddies, it’s the fact that they’re out of sight, out of mind and not smashing up the local Wetherspoons every weekend.

Squaddies / Matelots / Booties for the most part are cnuts end of. Once you actually get to know them you don’t want to be anywhere near them. :)
"Hey, watch this!" or "Here, hold my beer."
 
#72
Errrm, no. It bloody well is if the casualty is still a threat. Obviously I didn’t see the footage but perhaps the Colonel considered the guy to be either still a threat or not a casualty.
We’re not the Salvation Army.
Errrm, no. Casualty crawling away after a burst of 30mm from an AH. No one of right mind would've considered him a threat. This Inf Lt Col's point was that the bloke should've been finished off, and he gave scant concern to the protection of the casualty, under our RoE, of their being hors de combat.

I've seen the same thing on the Joint Air Weapons Course, and a couple of other PDT events - people trying to outsmart the token (usually fairly cute) Legad by asking questions about the rights & wrongs of mercy killing [the fictitious scenario of a wounded insurgent who is obviously v badly burned or injured, won't survive etc etc etc etc]. The reply is always the same - "I can't prevent you, because I won't be there on every occasion you have an opportunity to break the Law, but what I can tell you unequivocally is that if you do it, you're into Court Martial territory" or words to that effect.

We're not the Sally Army, but I reiterate that we're not the Totenkopf either.
 
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#73
Ive just been reading about this, are the Para grown ups really gonna allow the binning of 4 experienced Paras for what amounts to a prank? Wont the Army issue a collective F**k you?? if they are sacked for this, then what next?
Conduct liable to bring the Service into disrepute, anyone....?????
 

Auld-Yin

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#74
Conduct liable to bring the Service into disrepute, anyone....?????
That would be the guy filming it and presumably uploading it then, not the four shooters?
 
#76
the CGS video does more reputational damage, than the first two incidents put together.
I agree, to make a video and then put it on youtube , not a good idea the CGS should have known better, it just made the issues more prominent in the public eye
I wonder how many takes to get the final result ?
How many civvies have seen the CGS rant I wonder, and how many even know who or what he is? The only time they see a general is on the telly advertising a only one per household medal offer from the Royal Mint
 
#78
I'm currently serving and not offended by CGS's video. Aside from the unnatural body positioning, which is distracting, I think his message is clear; most sensible people would apply the, 'if the cap fits' approach.

I do wonder if the most recent alleged incident was the straw that broke the camel's back, perhaps there's been an increase in sexual assault incidents involving members of the Armed Forces? Looking at 2018 Court Martial proceedings, there seems to be quite a few, although they do include the other services*.

Back to the OP's question, as others have noted, the civilian population are a fickle bunch when it comes to the Armed Forces, I won't lose any sleep over their opinion of us.

* I haven't done any proper analysis of the 2018 figures or compared it with other years, just a quick scroll through using sexual harrassment, 'guilty' verdicts as baseline (Army).

Court martial results from the military court centres: January to December 2018 - GOV.UK
 
#79
I understand why he did it, the army needs to look like it’s being proactive in stopping and condemning these actions but after having read the comments on the telegraphs reposting of the video it seems to have alienated more people from the military.
 

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