Tim Collins wants UN to invade Sudan...

[Agent_Smith]

I normally agree with his sentiments, but did he not learn from the debacle that is Iraq?

It’s time for a new International Brigade

An international mercenary army could save the people of Darfur, says tim collins:

...A Native American acquaintance of mine, Steve Adkins, chief of the Chickahominy tribe from Virginia, said: "If [the people of Darfur] had oil and gas they'd be safe - [the West] would find a reason to help."

Well, let us take a flight of imagination and decide that we do care and we do want to help. What would it take to intervene against the Sudanese bully?

Sudan's military, as it stands, is vulnerable to an assault by a modern force. Based on the remnants of the Sudanese Defence Force left behind by the British and backed by the chaotic Janjaweed militias, with some Soviet bloc training and decaying equipment, it is a ragtag army.

To take it on, and then to hold the region, would require a force of less than divisional strength - that is to say some 10,000 men in three brigades with logistics back-up. The force would need to have armour and air power to deal with Sudan's army and air force before turning to peace enforcement to ensure that, once driven off, the army and militias did not return...

Re: the highligheted last sentence, was this not the plan in Iraq? Look what happened there...

[c]The first post

 

[FARMBOY]

I find it hard to believe that Col Collins would put his name to such a "back of a fag packet" type plan? I'm assuming this is the same Tim Collins of RIR fame?

 

[Priam]

Quickly scanned your link and then the other article posted the same day by Col TC ex RIR. I think that if you read the other article:
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?menuID=1&subID=875
It clarifies his thoughts a little!

Gonna read them both again and have a rethink

 

[chocolate_frog]

Bah, a mercanry division would leave no place for us to get more medals.

I really don't think this should be carried out by mercs.

We would probably end up putting a Corps' of real soldiers in to get rid of a Div of Mercs gone bad, all armed with sophisticaed off the shelf weaponry.

Do mercs do air support?

 

[Crazy_FOO]

MAybe if we armed them with teleporting devices and laserrrrrs...

 

[brettarider]

Bah, a mercanry division would leave no place for us to get more medals.

I really don't think this should be carried out by mercs.

We would probably end up putting a Corps' of real soldiers in to get rid of a Div of Mercs gone bad, all armed with sophisticaed off the shelf weaponry.

Do mercs do air support?

well with these bad boys and Mi 24's being offered in the UK can't see why not? wouldnt be too hard to find pilots for them would it

 

[Fred_Cat]

I normally agree with his sentiments, but did he not learn from the debacle that is Iraq?

It’s time for a new International Brigade

An international mercenary army could save the people of Darfur, says tim collins:

...A Native American acquaintance of mine, Steve Adkins, chief of the Chickahominy tribe from Virginia, said: "If [the people of Darfur] had oil and gas they'd be safe - [the West] would find a reason to help."

Well, let us take a flight of imagination and decide that we do care and we do want to help. What would it take to intervene against the Sudanese bully?

Sudan's military, as it stands, is vulnerable to an assault by a modern force. Based on the remnants of the Sudanese Defence Force left behind by the British and backed by the chaotic Janjaweed militias, with some Soviet bloc training and decaying equipment, it is a ragtag army.

To take it on, and then to hold the region, would require a force of less than divisional strength - that is to say some 10,000 men in three brigades with logistics back-up. The force would need to have armour and air power to deal with Sudan's army and air force before turning to peace enforcement to ensure that, once driven off, the army and militias did not return...

Re: the highligheted last sentence, was this not the plan in Iraq? Look what happened there...

[c]The first post

This would be Aegis, presumably? They must be looking for work now that the PMC Iraq gravy train is coming to an end. Does TC own shares in this or any other PMC? If he was a real journalist he'd have to declare such a financial interest in his article.

Can't see anyone stumping up the cost for a PMC army at $??? / merc / day. Unless we charge against future oil revenue and make the poor f##cking Sudanese pay for the privilege.

 

[Conicus_Maximus]

Quickly scanned your link and then the other article posted the same day by Col TC ex RIR. I think that if you read the other article:
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?menuID=1&subID=875
It clarifies his thoughts a little!

Gonna read them both again and have a rethink

Well put, Priam.

It would appear that what TC is getting at is the establishment of a military force under the control of the UN only, with no input from national governments, not neccessarily sending Aegis in to purge the Janjaweed.

Several questions here, to my mind:

1. Would this be a mercenary army, in the purest sense of the word?

Wikepedia defines "mercenary" as:

The generic definition of a mercenary is a soldier who fights or engages in warfare primarily for private gain, usually with little regard for ideological, national, or political considerations.

By this definition a UN Bde Gp would probably not be mercenaries.

2. Is the establishment of such a unit a good idea, and would it ever work?

From an idealistic background, this initially sounds quite cool. A professional military unit with, (presumably), full medical backup and an admin tail capable of looking after its' soldiers. I think, however, that TC has been watching a bit too much "Man from U.N.C.L.E".

In reality, the internecine, international squabbling that would occur within the unit itself, combined with the general indecisiveness of the UN, and the humungous language difficulties would prevent this unit from ever being deployed, except well after the point at which it could do any good.

That said, who would be an ideal candidate to head up such a high profile unit? Perhaps a high-ranking, high-profile, decorated ex-officer with a background from one of the most formidable SF units in the world?

I'm on to you, Brig Collins!

 

[Fred_Cat]

Quickly scanned your link and then the other article posted the same day by Col TC ex RIR. I think that if you read the other article:
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?menuID=1&subID=875
It clarifies his thoughts a little!

Gonna read them both again and have a rethink

Well put, Priam.

It would appear that what TC is getting at is the establishment of a military force under the control of the UN only, with no input from national governments, not neccessarily sending Aegis in to purge the Janjaweed.

Several questions here, to my mind:

1. Would this be a mercenary army, in the purest sense of the word?

Wikepedia defines "mercenary" as:

The generic definition of a mercenary is a soldier who fights or engages in warfare primarily for private gain, usually with little regard for ideological, national, or political considerations.

By this definition a UN Bde Gp would probably not be mercenaries.

2. Is the establishment of such a unit a good idea, and would it ever work?

From an idealistic background, this initially sounds quite cool. A professional military unit with, (presumably), full medical backup and an admin tail capable of looking after its' soldiers. I think, however, that TC has been watching a bit too much "Man from U.N.C.L.E".

In reality, the internecine, international squabbling that would occur within the unit itself, combined with the general indecisiveness of the UN, and the humungous language difficulties would prevent this unit from ever being deployed, except well after the point at which it could do any good.

That said, who would be an ideal candidate to head up such a high profile unit? Perhaps a high-ranking, high-profile, decorated ex-officer with a background from one of the most formidable SF units in the world?

I'm on to you, Brig Collins!

Agreed, nice idea, but UN will never pay a PMC to fight a war, its politically and morally unacceptable. More likely to attempt to soldier on with the AU, in the hope that somehow this will be turned into an effective African peace support / peace enforcing force. The current emphasis is very much on African forces to solve African problems.

 

[Biscuits_AB]

Tim Collins wants? Who gives a toss what he wants. Bloody civvies.

 

[Yellow_Devil]

Col Collins is looking for a military solution but neglects the enormous political obstacles in the way.

It is hard to imagine the UN, let alone the African Union or the Arab League, consenting to an army of white mercenaries being unleashed against a sovereign African state. As a military strategy it might be workable - but as a political proposal, it would be swiftly turned down.

Col Collins was employed by Aegis Defence Services (as it then was) after he resigned his commission, and revisited Iraq in that capacity. I don't know if he is still on the payroll.

I particularly liked:

A Darfur force might cost $1.3bn - but Live Aid raised more than $300m in a single concert to buy food for starving Ethiopia

Perhaps we could have a pro-war march and a Merc Aid concert hosted by Geldof? They'll be flogging tickets on eBay before you know it...

 

[LankyPullThrough]

Quickly scanned your link and then the other article posted the same day by Col TC ex RIR. I think that if you read the other article:
http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?menuID=1&subID=875
It clarifies his thoughts a little!

Gonna read them both again and have a rethink

Well put, Priam.

It would appear that what TC is getting at is the establishment of a military force under the control of the UN only, with no input from national governments, not neccessarily sending Aegis in to purge the Janjaweed.

Several questions here, to my mind:

1. Would this be a mercenary army, in the purest sense of the word?

Wikepedia defines "mercenary" as:

The generic definition of a mercenary is a soldier who fights or engages in warfare primarily for private gain, usually with little regard for ideological, national, or political considerations.

By this definition a UN Bde Gp would probably not be mercenaries.

2. Is the establishment of such a unit a good idea, and would it ever work?

From an idealistic background, this initially sounds quite cool. A professional military unit with, (presumably), full medical backup and an admin tail capable of looking after its' soldiers. I think, however, that TC has been watching a bit too much "Man from U.N.C.L.E".

In reality, the internecine, international squabbling that would occur within the unit itself, combined with the general indecisiveness of the UN, and the humungous language difficulties would prevent this unit from ever being deployed, except well after the point at which it could do any good.

That said, who would be an ideal candidate to head up such a high profile unit? Perhaps a high-ranking, high-profile, decorated ex-officer with a background from one of the most formidable SF units in the world?

I'm on to you, Brig Collins!

Agreed, nice idea, but UN will never pay a PMC to fight a war, its politically and morally unacceptable. More likely to attempt to soldier on with the AU, in the hope that somehow this will be turned into an effective African peace support / peace enforcing force. The current emphasis is very much on African forces to solve African problems.

A cynic might suggest that, in some cases, African forces ARE African problems. Agree with you that the UN won't pay for Tim Spicer's holiday, but I've always wondered why the UN didn't try to employ Gurkhas as its own 'Foreign Legion'. I mean they serve, quite legitimately and acceptably in the armies of Britain and India as well as Nepal plus the Singapore Police. Previous British recruitment suggests the Un cold get a Brigade-sized fireforce... Why not?

 

[Fred_Cat]

A cynic might suggest that, in some cases, African forces ARE African problems. Agree with you that the UN won't pay for Tim Spicer's holiday, but I've always wondered why the UN didn't try to employ Gurkhas as its own 'Foreign Legion'. I mean they serve, quite legitimately and acceptably in the armies of Britain and India as well as Nepal plus the Singapore Police. Previous British recruitment suggests the Un cold get a Brigade-sized fireforce... Why not?

Agree, huge problems with the AU, but the received wisdom is to make it work. Certainly won't be overnight, if it ever does work. Don't forget the AU includes the SADF, who are already involved in some AU ops, so there is certainly some skill available. You mention the Gurkhas, what about the poor sods of the former SADF buffalo brigades who are now being uprooted from their homes as a result of getting themselves involved with a bunch of old Etonians and that 'scratcher' bloke? They are excellent soldiers and Africans too.

 

[Yellow_Devil]

I thought the conventional wisdom was that the quality of the SADF had declined recently due to an increasingly political commissioning process, i.e. because of the Black Economic Empowerment programme, a lot of the white S African officers are leaving (perception that they won't get promoted to senior rank).

 

[lanky]

Col Collins is looking for a military solution but neglects the enormous political obstacles in the way.

It is hard to imagine the UN, let alone the African Union or the Arab League, consenting to an army of white mercenaries being unleashed against a sovereign African state. As a military strategy it might be workable - but as a political proposal, it would be swiftly turned down.

Col Collins was employed by Aegis Defence Services (as it then was) after he resigned his commission, and revisited Iraq in that capacity. I don't know if he is still on the payroll.

I particularly liked:

A Darfur force might cost $1.3bn - but Live Aid raised more than $300m in a single concert to buy food for starving Ethiopia

Perhaps we could have a pro-war march and a Merc Aid concert hosted by Geldof? They'll be flogging tickets on eBay before you know it...

Great idea!! I can imagine the singers changing some of their lyrics: "War! Huh! What is it good for? Well, stopping genocide actually..." Doesn't have quite the same ring though...

I must admit that I also like the Gurkha idea. Basically what we are saying is that the UN needs a standing army of sorts, with logistic backup, air power, ships etc. Can't see it being paid for though.

 

[Tytus_Barnowl]

Didn't Holden Roberto try the same in Angola around 74-75. Look at the quality of that sorry episode and the soldiers that fought in it.
What makes TC think that a slow moving organisation like the UN will be able to make a difference.
The job has to be handed to an accountable well resourced, agressive fighting force. The only Army that meets this criteria that I can think of is the French Foreign Legion, mind you there may be some difficulty getting the frogs to see things this way.

I normally agree with his sentiments, but did he not learn from the debacle that is Iraq?

It’s time for a new International Brigade

An international mercenary army could save the people of Darfur, says tim collins:

...A Native American acquaintance of mine, Steve Adkins, chief of the Chickahominy tribe from Virginia, said: "If [the people of Darfur] had oil and gas they'd be safe - [the West] would find a reason to help."

Well, let us take a flight of imagination and decide that we do care and we do want to help. What would it take to intervene against the Sudanese bully?

Sudan's military, as it stands, is vulnerable to an assault by a modern force. Based on the remnants of the Sudanese Defence Force left behind by the British and backed by the chaotic Janjaweed militias, with some Soviet bloc training and decaying equipment, it is a ragtag army.

To take it on, and then to hold the region, would require a force of less than divisional strength - that is to say some 10,000 men in three brigades with logistics back-up. The force would need to have armour and air power to deal with Sudan's army and air force before turning to peace enforcement to ensure that, once driven off, the army and militias did not return...

Re: the highligheted last sentence, was this not the plan in Iraq? Look what happened there...

[c]The first post

 

[bob_lawlaw]

A cynic might suggest that, in some cases, African forces ARE African problems. Agree with you that the UN won't pay for Tim Spicer's holiday, but I've always wondered why the UN didn't try to employ Gurkhas as its own 'Foreign Legion'. I mean they serve, quite legitimately and acceptably in the armies of Britain and India as well as Nepal plus the Singapore Police. Previous British recruitment suggests the Un cold get a Brigade-sized fireforce... Why not?

Agree, huge problems with the AU, but the received wisdom is to make it work. Certainly won't be overnight, if it ever does work. Don't forget the AU includes the SADF, who are already involved in some AU ops, so there is certainly some skill available. You mention the Gurkhas, what about the poor sods of the former SADF buffalo brigades who are now being uprooted from their homes as a result of getting themselves involved with a bunch of old Etonians and that 'scratcher' bloke? They are excellent soldiers and Africans too.

Fred _ Cat The " SADF Buffalo Brigades" I believe you are refering to as "being uprooted from their homes" are 32 Brigade(?) who are predominently Angolans. A less complimentary description from one who trained and operated with them called them 'camp followers' They were used very effectively in SADF operations, but those times are past and they are no longer required. They have been 'encouraged' to move along for the past 10 years, the "old Etonian' factor was merely another asbestos nail in their coffin.

As for Tim Spicer, his small team in Sierra Leone ran a highly effective training and operational role long before the 'legitimate' troops arrived

 

[Yellow_Devil]

Basically what we are saying is that the UN needs a standing army of sorts, with logistic backup, air power, ships etc. Can't see it being paid for though.

USA will never agree to it as it smacks too much of the "One World Government", and they are quite happy being the only show in town.

 

[Whiskybreath]

Col Collins:...A Native American acquaintance of mine, Steve Adkins, chief of the Chickahominy tribe from Virginia, said: "If [the people of Darfur] had oil and gas they'd be safe - [the West] would find a reason to help."

Sudan has a lot of oil and gas. When an employee of Chevron, the only US major in the field there, was killed in an attack by the SPLA in the late 90s at a pleasant spot in the Bahr-al-Ghazal region called Rebkona, they upped sticks and left the country, their places being taken by the Malaysians, Canadians and Swedes. Oh, and the Chinese, who look like they're going to take the lot, thanks very much.

 

[Cuddles]

WHAT?? On his own?