Tiananmen Square Massacre

#1
A diplomat's report at the time puts the dead in Tiananmen Square in 1989 at over 10,000.

A unit from the PLA called 27 Army were described as "primitives" who ran over students and other troops in APCs to make "pie". They even killed one of their own officers.

The newly declassified document, written little more than 24 hours after the massacre, gives a much higher death toll than the most commonly used estimates which only go up to about 3,000.

It also provides horrific detail of the massacre, alleging that wounded female students were bayoneted as they begged for their lives, human remains were “hosed down the drains”, and a mother was shot as she tried to go to the aid of her injured three-year-old daughter.
At least 10,000 people died in Tiananmen Square massacre, secret British cable alleges

Something to be borne in mind when we're sucking up to these people and watching them create a modern military with global reach.
 
#2
The eyewitnesses who were in the square (including foreign journalists and a Taiwanese musician) are unanimous that nobody was killed when the square was cleared. The only verifiable casualty was an army officer dragged from his vehicle and beaten to death by civvies as the column arrived.

Most of the diplomatic accounts written in the immediate aftermath have since been discounted - sometimes even by the people who wrote them.

One question I was asked that set me to looking into the events was this: it's less than 6km from the Yongdinghe Canal bridge at Muxidi where the first barricades were raised to the north west corner of the square where the column entered, and a straight road the whole way. Why did an armoured column hellbent on reaching the square come hell or high water and facing only unarmed opposition take more than 7 hours to cover the distance?
 
#6
Shortest discussion on ARRSE ever? :-D
The topic's turned up occasionally over the years I've been a member. I'd say that majority of members are not that interested and of the few who are the majority are only interested in shouting down any attempt to discredit received wisdom with facts.

Anyone who has a genuine interest in what happened and why can do their own investigations. There's plenty of information out there, you just need to filter out the "CHINA!!!! BLEARGHHHHH!"
 
#7
Something to be borne in mind when we're sucking up to these people and watching them create a modern military with global reach.
Although I doubt the report, who cares if its true or not? Does anyone give a flying **** about the Chinese people? Or anyone else in countries that have leaders who are a bit stringent when it comes to discipline?
 
#8
A diplomat's report at the time puts the dead in Tiananmen Square in 1989 at over 10,000.

A unit from the PLA called 27 Army were described as "primitives" who ran over students and other troops in APCs to make "pie". They even killed one of their own officers.



At least 10,000 people died in Tiananmen Square massacre, secret British cable alleges

Something to be borne in mind when we're sucking up to these people and watching them create a modern military with global reach.
Indeed, however Britain has some previous with using their army to crush uppity civilians.
 
#9
Indeed, however Britain has some previous with using their army to crush uppity civilians.
Aye, the reaction to the Glyndwr Rising showed what happens when a dog bared it's teeth to its master.
 
#10
shooting saves on messy trials and filling the prisons.
we should try it, it might work and save spending money on the prison & probation service.
might shoot the wrong people at times but hey ho that's life.
 
#11
Indeed, however Britain has some previous with using their army to crush uppity civilians.
I'm particularly interested in the timeline of righteousness.

In 1980, the Korean government sent its army into Gwangju to crush protests against authoritarian rule. Many casualties as unarmed demonstrators were fired on by troops. UK government's response was... nada. Nil, zilch and the square root of **** all.

In 1989, the PRC government sent its army in to clear out protests partly against authoritarian rule but mainly rising prices, unemployment and ironically the opening of markets. Many casualties as troops fired on unarmed demonstrators, petrol bombers, rioters, random folk in the street and anyone who looked at them a bit funny depending on whether they were combat units or rear-echelon. UK government's response was denunciation, sanctions, freezing of diplomatic relations, the whole nine yards of diplomatic outrage.

In 2011, the Bahrain government fulfilled its previously-stated promise of using lethal force on protests against authoritarian rule. Many casualties as the unarmed demonstrators were fired on by troops. UK government's response was... nada. Nil, zilch and the square root of **** all again.

So, somewhere between 1980 and 1989, brassing up protests went from ok to unacceptable, before reverting back in time for 2011. It's a funny old world, international relations.
 
#13
It may not be fashionable, but I find that I care less about what foreign governments do to their citizens than what they do which affects our government, or which affects what our government does to us.

We are not the resident constable of a world village, nor are we responsible for the actions of every tinpot psychopath in power. Our government is responsible for promoting the interests of our country, which generally coincides with the promotion of freedom and democracy globally. However this is a means to an end, not a goal in and of itself. Hence we can promote democratic change at the same time as arming despots without actually becoming the hypocrites we are often accused of being.
 
#14
Hence we can promote democratic change at the same time as arming despots without actually becoming the hypocrites we are often accused of being.
Unless we state that freedom and democracy (or at least our preferred versions) are universal values while simultaneously upholding some regimes that violate them and condemning others.

Then we would definitely be hypocrites.
 
#15
Something to be borne in mind when we're sucking up to these people and watching them create a modern military with global reach.
Never mind sucking up. We are becoming totally beholden to them. Every major infrastructure undertaking or project in this country (not to mention company acquisitions) is beholden either to Arabs (especially Qataris) or the Chinese.

We know nothing in this country but how to asset strip. What we once owned is steadily diminishing. We now manage the property of others.

There is no such thing as free money!
 
#16
The eyewitnesses who were in the square (including foreign journalists and a Taiwanese musician) are unanimous that nobody was killed when the square was cleared. The only verifiable casualty was an army officer dragged from his vehicle and beaten to death by civvies as the column arrived.

Most of the diplomatic accounts written in the immediate aftermath have since been discounted - sometimes even by the people who wrote them.

One question I was asked that set me to looking into the events was this: it's less than 6km from the Yongdinghe Canal bridge at Muxidi where the first barricades were raised to the north west corner of the square where the column entered, and a straight road the whole way. Why did an armoured column hellbent on reaching the square come hell or high water and facing only unarmed opposition take more than 7 hours to cover the distance?
It’s probably not in your bumper book of PRC propaganda, but Chinese government itself recorded 218 civvies dead.
 
#17
I'm particularly interested in the timeline of righteousness.

In 1980, the Korean government sent its army into Gwangju to crush protests against authoritarian rule. Many casualties as unarmed demonstrators were fired on by troops. UK government's response was... nada. Nil, zilch and the square root of **** all.
Interesting to read how SK civvies raided police stations and reserve armories and armed themselves with Garands and Carbines on 21 May and later got hold of 2 M1919A6 Brownings as well
 
#19
It’s probably not in your bumper book of PRC propaganda, but Chinese government itself recorded 218 civvies dead.
Which means the actual number is a lot higher.
 
#20
Indeed, however Britain has some previous with using their army to crush uppity civilians.
Come now, did you not blush, not even a teeny weeny bit, when you were typing that???
 
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