Those In Peril Upon The Sea

Rab_C

LE
Sod the bridge crew, in offshore oil, gas and renewables we have the paper charts out on a regular basis looking for seabed features. Getting 5 people around a display isn’t going to happen.
 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
Sod the bridge crew, in offshore oil, gas and renewables we have the paper charts out on a regular basis looking for seabed features. Getting 5 people around a display isn’t going to happen.
Genuine question, why? Is there some regulation limiting you to 1950s scale TV screens?
 
I agree that electronic charts are very good but with the caveat, if used properly. I have seen occasions where all the electronic equipment is provided; ECDIS, AIS, GPS etc. and all the data is input onto the ECDIS so the OOW can look at his chart display and see where he is and the positions of all the ships around him. He then treats the whole thing much like a computer game and doesn't do the basics and look out of the window. All this kit should be seen a an aid to navigation not the standard.

Or maybe I'm just an old fart!

You’re an old fart.
 

Rab_C

LE
Genuine question, why? Is there some regulation limiting you to 1950s scale TV screens?
We use large scale charts and want an overview of a large area that on the displays we have available onboard would be very hard to read. It’s not a case of us being luddites, we are at the forefront of technology but some things are genuinely easier “the old way”. Note I say easier.
 

Sarastro

LE
Kit Reviewer
We use large scale charts and want an overview of a large area that on the displays we have available onboard would be very hard to read. It’s not a case of us being luddites, we are at the forefront of technology but some things are genuinely easier “the old way”. Note I say easier.
Fair enough, I can see why large screen installations on a moving platform aren't ideal.
 
When it’s just for a reversionary backup in case the primary nav systems go tits, presumably there are DVDs available with pretty much every chart ever made.

In the days of Ptarmigan, we had paper copies of the commonly used AESPs on the wagons. But the entire system was huge, and the different levels of AESP meant that the Tech Library in the main workshops could easily fill a room. However, we also had these on microfiche out in the field, so that room in barracks was replicated in every ERV with a fiche reader the size of a briefcase and a box of fiches about the size of the old diskette containers. Ancient technology by now of course, but it worked, and gave us all the info we might need. I’m convinced that 90% of the fiche production eventually went in the burn pit unused, but (and I’ve been there), that one time when you need some info and it’s only on that one fiche, you have it. In my case, in a bombed out ice stadium in winter in Sarajevo.

So if the thought is a backup archive for emergency use, a DVD, or even an SDcard would suffice. Cheap to produce and disseminate, and if you equip ships that need paper copies with a wide format printer for a couple grand, you’re off to the races, no?
 

Rab_C

LE
So if the thought is a backup archive for emergency use, a DVD, or even an SDcard would suffice. Cheap to produce and disseminate, and if you equip ships that need paper copies with a wide format printer for a couple grand, you’re off to the races, no?
No, that printed chart then becomes an uncontrolled copy and when 2 years later the vessel runs into a breakwater that hadn’t been there 2 years earlier there’ll be a few problems at the board of enquiry. If you could control that only 1 copy was printed then maybe you could control it, but stupid is as stupid does and there’d be copies all over the place.
 
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When it’s just for a reversionary backup in case the primary nav systems go tits, presumably there are DVDs available with pretty much every chart ever made.

In the days of Ptarmigan, we had paper copies of the commonly used AESPs on the wagons. But the entire system was huge, and the different levels of AESP meant that the Tech Library in the main workshops could easily fill a room. However, we also had these on microfiche out in the field, so that room in barracks was replicated in every ERV with a fiche reader the size of a briefcase and a box of fiches about the size of the old diskette containers. Ancient technology by now of course, but it worked, and gave us all the info we might need. I’m convinced that 90% of the fiche production eventually went in the burn pit unused, but (and I’ve been there), that one time when you need some info and it’s only on that one fiche, you have it. In my case, in a bombed out ice stadium in winter in Sarajevo.

So if the thought is a backup archive for emergency use, a DVD, or even an SDcard would suffice. Cheap to produce and disseminate, and if you equip ships that need paper copies with a wide format printer for a couple grand, you’re off to the races, no?
I remember there being microfiche on ships.
 
Having gone around the world, and then around the North Atlantic and Arctic, solely on electronic charts, all I’ll say is, finally.

Paper charts are brilliant for some things (wrapping paper?) but electronic charts are far superior.
The chap I bought my present boat from had been a Chief Engineer on many a cargo ship before he retired. When I got my boat from him, there were dozens of charts, from all over the world, tucked away in a cupboard under the main steering position. When I asked about them, he said that I'd never need to buy an engine gasket again.
 
No, that printed chart then becomes an uncontrolled copy and when 2 years later the vessel runs into a breakwater that hadn’t been there 2 years earlier there’ll be a few problems at the board of enquiry. If you could control that only 1 copy was printed then maybe you could control it, but stupid is as stupid does and there’d be copies all over the place.

How does that work for “official” paper charts? Is there a BFO statement to the effect of “Data valid as of 29 Feb 2000, next issue 29 Feb 2002” or similar? I know the charts are supposed to be amended through notices, but that’s a manual process prone to error.

Up to date chart dissemination must be a similar problem to crypto distribution, and that’s been solved for quite a long time.
 

Diogenes' limp

War Hero
OK, I'll say it before the superannuated snotties pile in, the cost of continuing to produce paper charts is not justified by this risk, but it'll be a long days camel ride before I sail out of sight of land without paper charts in the locker, the lightning conductor is higher than the hull is long!
 

Rab_C

LE
How does that work for “official” paper charts? Is there a BFO statement to the effect of “Data valid as of 29 Feb 2000, next issue 29 Feb 2002” or similar? I know the charts are supposed to be amended through notices, but that’s a manual process prone to error.

Up to date chart dissemination must be a similar problem to crypto distribution, and that’s been solved for quite a long time.
I believe that if issued to say for example a shipping company, the shipping co then sign up for all amendments which they will receive and distribute to their fleet. Each boat then carries out the amendments. All commercial vessels are regularly inspected by outside authorities be they Lloyds, Veritas or national maritime agencies and as part of these inspections chart folios are checked to see if they have been updated correctly. What your average pleasure craft sailor does I have no idea.
 

endure

GCM
How does that work for “official” paper charts? Is there a BFO statement to the effect of “Data valid as of 29 Feb 2000, next issue 29 Feb 2002” or similar? I know the charts are supposed to be amended through notices, but that’s a manual process prone to error.

Up to date chart dissemination must be a similar problem to crypto distribution, and that’s been solved for quite a long time.
Chart corrections are published every week and it's to the 2nd Mate's benefit that s/he does them correctly.
 

Rab_C

LE
Presumably they're regionalised? Not much point in a cross-channel ferry doing chart updates for the Gulf of Mexico. How big are the regions?
You will carry a folio that contains all the charts for your expected working areas. For the vessels I am on that’s normally UK, Ireland and NW Europe. You order/carry what you need. Some container vessel travel huge distances covering all continents.
 
Presumably they're regionalised? Not much point in a cross-channel ferry doing chart updates for the Gulf of Mexico. How big are the regions?
We’ll that being the point, most shipping I came upon was on specific routes for specific trades. So I would assume,
(A) they would only need the charts for their regions
(B) Pilots would know their own areas
 

endure

GCM
Presumably they're regionalised? Not much point in a cross-channel ferry doing chart updates for the Gulf of Mexico. How big are the regions?
A full set of corrections is issued to everybody and you pick the ones that are relevant to the charts that you are carrying.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
Ocean Clean up is a Dutch teenagers idea and concept. He has done something, unlike others.

It’s a pity that the world can’t be run by teenagers - it would be a much happier place if my personal experience is anything to go by.

Stand fast the Hitler Youth obviously.
 
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