This is real racism

#2
The defence of the mosque 'owners' that they are not responsible for what appears in their bookshops or what 'visiting' mad mullahs preach is one that others, e.g. BNP will no doubt adopt. Let's see if sauce for mullahs is sauce for them also?
 

Nehustan

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#3
My experience of the people that run mosques is that they are very much run of the mill people with very normal aspirations for their own and their 'congregations'. If you think that people ranting against 'Kafir' is scarey via the TV imagine young people in your mosque, part of your community, and the dilemmas that might present. Now I know the UK isn't Iraq, but last time I checked these types of radicals are too fond of what they 'deem' collaboration, so maybe that's why people 'sit' in silence and don't confront them? Just a thought.
 
#4
Nehustan said:
My experience of the people that run mosques is that they are very much run of the mill people with very normal aspirations for their own and their 'congregations'. If you think that people ranting against 'Kafir' is scarey via the TV imagine young people in your mosque, part of your community, and the dilemmas that might present. Now I know the UK isn't Iraq, but last time I checked these types of radicals are too fond of what they 'deem' collaboration, so maybe that's why people 'sit' in silence and don't confront them? Just a thought.
But surely that makes it all the more imperative that you take back your religion from these radicals? Easy for me to say I know, because I'm not the one who'd have to confront them!
 

Nehustan

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#5
It's quite a complicated task. Scholars in the way they used to exist (and actually still do in Egypt at Al Ahzar to an extent) don't anymore. With growing literacy texts are available to many more people who can select them at will to justify their ideology. There are many hadith which do deal with the subject of unbelievers (contextually those who fought against Mohammad and by extension Islam) and Jews (not so much Christians as they were not that prevalent in the Hijaz i.e around Mecca and Medina). No Muslim will contest the legitimacy of what Muhammad said, it would be considered unbelief. So it is quite easy to quote hadith, and have people venture no opposition, especially if they feel ill-equipped scholastically. This said however if they were ever confronted by the type of Scholar that used to exist in better times, the radicals would be running for cover. Why do these scholars not exist to any great extent, well it was in days gone by that to be a scholar was the highest level in society. People with good brains in todays world might be more drawn to science and technology than a life devoted to religious study. I'm sure this will change, but at the moment Islam is in flux, or rather the people who follow Islam are.
 
#6
Nehustan said:
It's quite a complicated task. Scholars in the way they used to exist (and actually still do in Egypt at Al Ahzar to an extent) don't anymore. With growing literacy texts are available to many more people who can select them at will to justify their ideology. There are many hadith which do deal with the subject of unbelievers (contextually those who fought against Mohammad and by extension Islam) and Jews (not so much Christians as they were not that prevalent in the Hijaz i.e around Mecca and Medina). No Muslim will contest the legitimacy of what Muhammad said, it would be considered unbelief. So it is quite easy to quote hadith, and have people venture no opposition, especially if they feel ill-equipped scholastically. This said however if they were ever confronted by the type of Scholar that used to exist in better times, the radicals would be running for cover. Why do these scholars not exist to any great extent, well it was in days gone by that to be a scholar was the highest level in society. People with good brains in todays world might be more drawn to science and technology than a life devoted to religious study. I'm sure this will change, but at the moment Islam is in flux, or rather the people who follow Islam are.
So it's not possible to challenge the man without challenging Mohammad?

(edited for clarity-I hope!)
 

Nehustan

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#7
I'm sure it is and people do. I saw a young black brother sat in Brixton mosque (of shoe shoe bomber fame) at the end of Jummah prayer by the door holding a book with a title 'Terrorism is not Islam', which I took to be a silent protest.

The nature of ideology is that people are well versed/indoctrinated in it, it goes without saying. Thus anyone who is a run of the mill believer will have rings run around them. It would be very easy to trip someone like that up, and in fact they probably have well rehearsed scenarios for such an occurence whenever and wherever, from a softly softly approach to hell and damnation. The average muslim's interests are wife and kids job, mother and father, practice of his faith etc., even if knowledgeable he will not have it drilled with an almost battle drill formula. In actuality anyone with the level of knowledge that radicals do possess would be impressed from a religious perspective. They may well feel inferior, i.e. all I do is work, sleep, eat, pray while this brother is really commited to Islam.
 
#8
Nehustan - thanks for the input. You do not say whether or not you saw the programme in question. The way it was presented was to portray people in a the place of what one assumes corresponds to the pulpit who were preaching acts of extreme violence against a well defined section of the outside community. The tolerance of the persons I refer to a mosque owners in allowing this sort of performance seems beyond belief unless they accept what is being said or advocated. I am eager to accept Islam as a religion of peace but find the language, demeanour and inspiration from the "mad mullahs" anything but peaceful. Even if just one person is sent off to buy peroxide and chapatti flour as a result, it is one too many. I see the sacrifice of one suicide bomber as a waste. I cannot but help wonder what would be the response in a Muslim country if the TV there were to show one of the lunatic anti-Islam British advocating the same cort of conduct. I suspect it would be a rerun of the hysteria we saw after the cartoons?
 

Nehustan

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#9
I think that over the last 100 years there has been much playing around in what the Muslims know as 'Dar As Salaam'. Now the average Joe has had nothing to do with this, but there have been conscious players. The radical preacher will exploit a non muslims ignorance (meant in the nicest possible way) of Islam and portray it as active opposition of Islam. Suddenly the person who actively sets out to interrupt political Islam (and Islam has always been political, economics, social as well as a personal spirituality), is seen as the leader of people who think the same, that their actions are supported by the masses. There's no doubt that for instance Tony Blair is against political islam en masse, yet there are so many movements. 'Al Qaeda' for instance is not partial to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. The two are painted as the same. Blair knows they're not the same, it just suits his agenda and political allegiances for them to be seen as the same. So 'Al Qaeda' bombing NY or London, Mubarak is backed with his treatment of his own radicals, even though his own radicals are not 'Al Qaeda' and actively seek to enter the politcal arena. The UK public doesn't know the difference between the flavours of Islamic radicalism, so they support the goverment and the cycle continues. It's the old game of them and us played, very succesfully I might add, by both sides.

(adding I didn't see the programme RedCap)
 
#10
shaka said:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=429931&in_page_id=1772&in_author_id=322&in_check=N

Very interesting article by Richard Littlejohn I liked the description " A pig in Lipstick"

Apologies if posted before.
For crying out loud. Channel 4 News, which completely ignored Dispatches, has been filling its boots with Big Brother 'racism'.
I do believe that Mr. Littlejohn has been reading ARRSE and borrowing phrases!

A good article and one that raises questions that our MPs need to address with the same vigour that they've shown over Z-List 'Celebrity' Big Brother.
 
#11
Lets face it more people watch BB than Dispatches. At least those watching and complaining BB recognised the combination of ignorance, bullying and racism exhibited by Jade and her mates. Jade may not think she is racist but then she doen't think does she? The Dispatches thing is of concern. These extremists are an articulate minority who will influence the disafffected. But its hardly a suprise or anything new to the Security Services
 
#12
Nehustan, well said - succinct and erudite.

:thumright:
 
#13
Nehustan, a very good post,well written indeed. Many thanks
 
#15
shaka said:
Does little to help in the present climate.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=430249&in_page_id=1770

"I cannot shake your hand, sir. I'm a Muslim and you're a man"

People were asking how the hell is she going to make an arrest if she refuses to touch men."
Quick officer, hold him here while I get the other one. Nope, sorry can't because it's against my religion. OH well give him a ticket and on the spot fine instead.

Pants, complete and utter pants. Exit stage left
 
#16
Nehustan, in the past I have called you an apologist for muslim violence, for that I'm sorry as you most certainly arn't.

However, you say that people find it difficult to challenge the words of extremists because they seem to have the word of muhammed on their side to the less well scolared muslim.

My point is why should a relegion over-rule peoples own morals, people in the christian faith have managed to recognise that some of what is written in the bible is complete b*llocks and belongs in the dark ages, why can't more muslims do the same, and if they can't maybe there is no place for islam in the modern democratic UK.

I am a christian, my relegion would not over-ride my own morals, I know different from wrong and right and don't need my beliefs to tell me what to do, if another christian was preaching some of the more out of date passages of the bible (maybe concerning poofters) I would speak up and say that it's a load of b*llocks and preach back a live and let live attitude towards wooly woofters.
 
#17
As Nehustan points out so well - when faced with an extremely strong, somewhat insular social group and a strong authority figure, individual resistance is surprisingly weak. You can't really compare present-day English Christian 'society' with the present day british Muslim one - because the Christian community barely exists anymore. In a few rural villages, the affairs of the community might revolve around the Church, but who can say that we have one major Christian city, where actions are governed primarily by the influence of the Church?
Because of its immigrant nature (despite most of its population being second or third generation British citizens) Islam in Britain has a much stronger influence over its people than Christianity does. Which is why it is difficult for a Christian to understand how so many more Muslims do not just out and out denounce radicalism. But (Nehustan, please correnct me if I'm wrong) in that situation, if you are a British Muslim with a family, of moderate beliefs, it is bound to be much easier to be swayed by an authority figure who preaches a more extreme form of Islam, and thus increaseyour identity with and importance to your community group than it is to resist such an influence, with the possibility of being forced from that close knit community because you have resisted an authority figure, and embarrassed an influential man.

Bottom line is humans need and crave group identification (Enjoy the craic down the Naafi/Mess? Being part of X coy/Ybn/Z Reg?) And British Muslims, I would think, find it extremely hard to denounce the group from which the gain the most support, and have the most in common with. Imagine a brawl at a bar in Aldershot. When faced with the CO on monday morning do you a) keep a stony silence to protect your muckers, and to avoid losing their trust and support (and perhaps most crucially because thats what Sgt Bloggs has instucted) or b) rat out the culprits (and Sgt Bloggs) because that is what Authority would have you do?

You have the most in common with X section - you respect Sgt Bloggs, and your section is your family. Forgive the analogy, but that's why (I reckon) most Muslims find it hard just to turn around and discredit the loudest voices we hear from their communities.
 
#18
I take your point sarnian about it being more difficult, of course you are right, however I still don't see that as an excuse for displaying a lack of moral courage.

For you anology to fit, sgt bloogs would have to cowardly kicking the sh!t out of some poor bloke with the help of his mates just because he had a different cap badge on, and even then its not anywhere near as disgusting moraly bankrupt as either supporting terrorism and certainly not as disgusting as being the guy who kills scores of innocents by going bang on the tube.

If the above was true of sgt bloggs i'd like to think most sqauddies I know would speak up, or at least step in to stop it.
 

Nehustan

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On ROPs
#20
sarnian said:
As Nehustan points out so well - when faced with an extremely strong, somewhat insular social group and a strong authority figure, individual resistance is surprisingly weak. You can't really compare present-day English Christian 'society' with the present day british Muslim one - because the Christian community barely exists anymore. In a few rural villages, the affairs of the community might revolve around the Church, but who can say that we have one major Christian city, where actions are governed primarily by the influence of the Church?
Because of its immigrant nature (despite most of its population being second or third generation British citizens) Islam in Britain has a much stronger influence over its people than Christianity does. Which is why it is difficult for a Christian to understand how so many more Muslims do not just out and out denounce radicalism. But (Nehustan, please correnct me if I'm wrong) in that situation, if you are a British Muslim with a family, of moderate beliefs, it is bound to be much easier to be swayed by an authority figure who preaches a more extreme form of Islam, and thus increaseyour identity with and importance to your community group than it is to resist such an influence, with the possibility of being forced from that close knit community because you have resisted an authority figure, and embarrassed an influential man.

Bottom line is humans need and crave group identification (Enjoy the craic down the Naafi/Mess? Being part of X coy/Ybn/Z Reg?) And British Muslims, I would think, find it extremely hard to denounce the group from which the gain the most support, and have the most in common with. Imagine a brawl at a bar in Aldershot. When faced with the CO on monday morning do you a) keep a stony silence to protect your muckers, and to avoid losing their trust and support (and perhaps most crucially because thats what Sgt Bloggs has instucted) or b) rat out the culprits (and Sgt Bloggs) because that is what Authority would have you do?

You have the most in common with X section - you respect Sgt Bloggs, and your section is your family. Forgive the analogy, but that's why (I reckon) most Muslims find it hard just to turn around and discredit the loudest voices we hear from their communities.
I reckon that's pretty much said how I understand it.

Added to this Islam is different in some ways to what we now know as Christianity. It is often quoted that Islam in 'The religion of Peace', that would actually be a mistranslation. As Salaam is a name of God meaning 'The source of peace' and Islam is submission (or one's best attempt) to that source. Thus I suppose at best it might be translated as 'Submission to the Source of Peace'. This does not actually mean that Islam is bound to walk around in self denying humility, in fact they are engouraged to stick up for themself and others.

Although this is meant to have specific criteria and methodology, there is plenty to be misrepresented in Islamic texts (as with anything), and plenty of bad feelings, feelings of shame, or actual control of Muslims leaders/attacks on Muslim to exploit and for these messages to find root and grow.
 

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