Thinking the unthinkable: Is it time for pay cuts?

Discussion in 'Army Pay, Claims & JPA' started by BuggerAll, May 25, 2010.

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  1. BuggerAll

    BuggerAll LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    The country is strapped for money. The last Government has left us in a major hole. The Defence Budget has been seriously underfunded for years whilst the Government p1ssed money against the wall on the never never.

    Last nights program on High Thread IEDD types highlighted the problem in one area but its not a lone problem. The new Government is going to have to spend more money on Defence. This is going to be a hard sell to the tax payer at a time when there is no money and other departments are seeing their budgets cut.

    Clearly we also need to look at where savings can be made in the Defence budget. Cutting the grass less often, making sure that travel is really necessary and so on.

    What about pay cuts? I think up to Sergeant on the OR side and Captain on the commission side should not be cut but how about cutting the differential between Sergeant and Staff and Captain and Major by half and
    paying WO2 and 1s down a rank likewise Lt Cols and Brigs. Again cutting Maj Gens differential to Brigs by half and knocking Lt Gen and Gens down by one - same for the RN and RAF and CS.

    I would also question whether we need to pay the more senior members of the reserve quite as much as we do.
  2. In a word, no. There will be loads of arguments for not doing that but, all those aside, at a time when we are asking so much of our armed forces, do we really want to make them financially worse off. I don't think so but even if we were not involved in Afghanistan and previously in Iraq, I think we owe it to the troops not to bugger their money around whatever their rank.
  3. Listen mate, my child is at a school with many Service parents, none of who have deployed in the last ten years while pulling double and treble school allowance. Work it out, pay the people who deploy and pay the others as the Civil Servants that they are.
  4. A similar debate is going on over here:
  5. Really? And would you have been happy with that when you were serving?
    I don't believe that this will be an effective option. Some of the following might help however:

    1. Stop paying winter fuel allowance to those who don't need it (i.e. with pensions/savings over a certain amount)

    2. Stop paying Child benefit to those who don't need it (i.e. those with incomes over a certain limit)

    3. Stop allowing foreign drivers/haulage companies from driving on our roads without paying for the priviledge (we pay tolls when abroad, they don't pay Road Fund Licence)

    4. Stop the underspend culture in ALL goverment departments, you know the one that says "Quick, we've got £25k left, lets spend it before they take it off next years budget" Why not ROLL OVER underspends, thereby rewarding the frugal departments with the opportunity to accrue Their savings to pur towards major projects instead of blowing them on stuff they might not actually need.

    5. Sort out all Government procurement departments to ensure that they actually get value for money and don't dick around massaging the old boy network, signing duff contracts that cost us twice what they should for products half as good as they need to be.

    6. Stop knobbers from abusing JPA by making line managers accountable for checking their guiys claims.

    Just a couple for starters, but don't even think about cutting pay for troops, you might just end up with a military coup! (I can but dream) :)

    edited once for sausage finger syndrome 8O
  6. I strongly suspect that the small amounts of money saved by such a scheme would be more than negated by the bad press and the wrong message it would send to us. There is a reason that senior Officers and NCOs get a good wage and that is that more is demanded of them. Think of the effect on the moral component of fighting power if the message from the government is that we value you so much that we are cutting your pay. And don't forget that the pain of ops is felt well before and after the op by the units involved with the, quite frankly, crippling pre-deployment training and the after effects of a tough tour.

    That is, IMHO, why this idea is sheer folly and similar arguements could be made for other jobs that require highly trained personnel to carry out skilled jobs such as nurses, doctors, police officers, prison officers etc.
  7. Let's stop donating money to countries with space programmes
  8. ...and nuclear weapon stockpiles.
  9. And lets stop giving all these foreigners all the benefits they get - including child allowance for children who don't even live in this country! They should live here for at least 5 years before they are entitled to any of that, as well as treatment on the NHS.
    But cutting wages for the Armed Forces is a big no no. I never got deployed, not because I didn't want to go, but because it just didn't come up for me to go. I've just left, but still married to the Army and wouldn't be impressed with a pay cut.
  10. ...and the only nation apart from the US, Russia and the UK to be building aircraft carriers over 40,000 tonnes.

    Pay cuts are highly probable in the wider CS and Quangoland, the offer being along these lines: you all have xx% of something or some of you get 100% of nothing.

    Ireland, Spain, Greece and even the Isle of Man are there already
  11. As a WO1 i am on £42k a year.

    I am responsible for uoto 45 people, however i don't have 45 people, i am drastically short of SNCO's and class 1's, so i take on their workloads.

    I am responsible for over £80 million pounds worth of kit, alot of it specialist, one offs etc.

    Tell me what a civvy with similar responsibilities would be earning.................ooh hang on about the same if not more. I know as i am looking at civpol jobs at present.

    I work on average 10 hours a day, no sports afternoons, though i allow myself the luxury of knocking off at 15.00hrs on a Friday to commute home to my own house, pretty much like the thousands of civvies i see on the road at the same time every Friday afternoon.

    So in a nutshell, i am paid roughly the same as a civvy counterpart, i probably work longer hours so i proabably deserve what i earn.

    Another point, i have to do my trade from all levels up to my own responsibilities, be a manager, a teacher to my youing soldiers, i have to do HR as well, report writing, booking on courses, i have to do welfare and discipline as well as all the 'routine' military stufff, MATT's, PT, duties etc

    I do my job as a soldier, the job i am trained and paid to do, all year around. Now throw in the 4 op tours i have done in the last 10 years and i suspect i am worth every penny i get paid.

    As for medical, the only med treatment i have ever sought is for injuries caused by life in the military.
  12. No issue with mil salaries as they stand - I'd suggest though that the allowances network needs trimming. We have too many "Nice to have allowances" which pay money out and which you'd struggle to find in civvy street (thinking things like oyster cards and food allowance for staff in London here).

    Put all mil staff into a permanent home location, then provide one return journey per week, and basic rental of flat (if no mil accom available) and thats your lot. No allowances for food or daily travel etc, you just have to budget for it like everyone else (this is the MOD CS package btw). Sounds harsh, but it would save a fortune and act as a reality check - particularly in London where my old corporal worked out his total package (including food & accom but not pension) was in excess of £50k per year for doing an admin job. By contrast a CS would cost just £15k to do the same job. (Yes I know you can't deploy a CS, but its an example of the 'plum posts' that we cling to for the mil when they could be done a lot more cheaply by civil staff.
  13. I think the level of responsibility that SNCO's, WO's and Officers have reflects their wages (although I would say there is a very good case for platoon/troop commanders on the ground in Afghan to earn more than they do). I've worked on projects up to $US25 million. Kind of important that it's done correctly don't you think.
  14. BuggerAll

    BuggerAll LE Reviewer Book Reviewer

    I don't disagree with any of those other proposals for saving money with the exception of Western who seems to think the Armed Forces is full of people manipulating the system to avoid being deployed. If people are not being deployed its because they are doing a valuable job where they are and should be paid for it.

    The country is in a hole. Its not our fault but there is going to be a lot of pain in the public sector and we are going to have to accept some of it.

    BTB The savings on Army 1 Stars of dropping their pay by a rank would be about £3m pa. Its the only rank where I can find the numbers and the pay rates to do the maths. My gut feeling is that there would be a similar saving in the rest of the Star ranks and quite a bit more between the Colonels and the Majors. Say a total of £15m over all.

    Now in the big scheme of things maybe that is not too significant and maybe the loss of morale in the upper echelons would make it an unwise saving but the trouble with any Government cuts is that they are going to hurt somebody and every one believes that they are a special case for not cutting.
  15. and Aircraft carrier programes with ships actually in the water