Things hotting up with Turkey

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The F-35 in their inventory willl be a mistake. As with letting them try to wipe out the Kurds...

Wait please stop before I get a migraine and disparage the current Commander in Chief...
10% of the F-35 components are built in Turkey, FYI. They’ve also taken deliver of their first pair.
 
Turkey needs to go, tbh. They are not an ally by any means.
I had an appointment with the British NSE Commander a few years ago in Kabul, we were discussing our access (personnel and equipment) issues to HKIA - specifically:
  1. How the Turks seemed to change their minds as to which regulations to follow (either their own or NATOs, and occasionally ones that were made up on the spot (depending on who the shift commander was)…...
    1. We caught them out on two occasions when they revised security SOPs, started following these revised brand new policies/documentation - they would then throw a shit-fit when you used the old SOPs/docs, only to get very defensive and embarrassed when you took the trouble to point out that their SOPs hadn't been published on NATO SECRET...….
  2. You have to book time-slots at HKIA for LNs and equipment deliveries, not a drama previously, we'd normally have a guy at the gate a little before the time-slot and our delivery would get in. The Turks turned up and would chin us (and anyone else) off, giving priority to their own "mission essential" equipment (normally I'd say "fair one" and rebook a slot), unfortunately their deliveries often took the form of Gucci-looking furniture and other similar souvenirs (which went home on the next outbound TuAF A400), deliveries to their "PX" (it was the same shite you'd buy at the bazaar, but with a price mark-up), or stuff for their coffee shop etc.....
  3. The Turkish Site Security Officer (SSO) is always either TuAF or Navy (usually a major/commander who speaks English), unfortunately the half-wits on the gates are army, who frequently chose not to listen to the SSO and spoke no civilised languages (which was a pain given that I speak English, Bosch and French).
    1. You simply couldn't get anything done with the external gates, we ended up delivering kit and personnel to Qargha or the TAD and flying it in to HKIA.
  4. We had thefts from deliveries at the gate, and thefts from compounds (knowing fine well who'd done it) we'd report it to the MPs, unfortunately investigations have a tendency to stall when CCTV footage of Turkish military personnel guilty bastards cutting padlocks off is not released......
The NSE Commander sympathised, he'd really dug-out for us in the past, as he said to me "when the Turkish COS says that he "likes you as a person, but despises your country" you're absolutely stuck".

There's many other instances of outrageously dodgy shenanigans they got up to, which are not for this forum.
 
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Nope, I had not. To be honest most Americans give your government a pass simply for being Brits. I hope after the Brexit debacle that mindset changes.
The Turks turned to the UK because of ITAR - nothing to do with BREXIT. Joint development of a 5th Gen LO supercruise combat aircraft, devoid of US technologies because of the fickle nature of US export control regimes.

This is also at the root of the S400 debacle. But I see that arch-Neocon, John Bolton, is off to Ankara on 9 Jan along with your CJCS, Gen Dunsford. As they’d say in Turkish çok sanslar! (Good luck!).

Why do you see Turkey as the enemy? Ever been there?
 
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The Turks turned to the UK because of ITAR - nothing to do with BREXIT. Joint development of a 5th Gen LO supercruise combat aircraft, devoid of US technologies because of the fickle nature of US export control regimes.

This is also at the root of the S400 debacle. But I see that arch-Neocon, John Bolton, is off to Ankara on 9 Jan along with your CJCS, Gen Dunsford. As they’d say in Turkish çok sanslar! (Good luck!).

Why do you see Turkey as the enemy? Ever been there?
You missed my point completely. Their are reasons why Turkey is not viewed as much of an ally anymore. This started back in 2003. Their belief that we helped support the coup, their not so friendly intentions towards the kurds, and their chumminess with the Ivan’s, and their tolerance of the Islamic State are a few.

I don’t view most countries that practice rampant Anti Americanism as “friendly”.
Just another OP plan to create and file away.

Americans give your government higher marks then they should, because you are British. They don’t realize your political leadership is just as fecked up as ours. Come March that will hopefully change.
 
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You missed my point completely. Their are reasons why Turkey is not viewed as much of an ally anymore. This started back in 2003. Their belief that we helped support the coup, their not so friendly intentions towards the kurds, and their chumminess with the Ivan’s, and their tolerance of the Islamic State are a few.

I don’t view most countries that practice rampant Anti Americanism as “friendly”.
Just another OP plan to create and file away.

Americans give your government higher marks then they should, because you are British. They don’t realize your political leadership is just as fecked up as ours. Come March that will hopefully change.
I didn’t miss your points; I believe addressed them in earlier postings. Turkey is a difficult country for a variety of reasons. Its history means it does not trust other countries, and especially alliances. There is no love between Turkey and Russia; indeed, it is only because of Russian involvement in Syria that results in Erdogan having a dialogue with Putin. Putin and Erdogan are similar characters (and very much like Trump) but these relationships are ephemeral. Geographically, Turkey remains vitally important to European security. I believe Turkey was right in 2003 not to stick their hands on the mangle of Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. Time has proven this to have been a sound decision. Moreover, Turkey does not tolerate Isis and has been extremely active in arresting suspects and interrupting attacks. This came to a head after a series of bombings in 2015. Prior to this the threat, Turkish concerns were (and remain) primus inter pares the PKK and YPG as they have killed several orders of magnitude of Turks - including Kurds - than IS have. Moreover, without Turkish cooperation, hundreds of foreign fighters would have slipped back into Europe without detection. And netted amongst that are some who have claimed to have undertaken humanitarian work for PYD, including the ginger fibber Joe Robinson (qv claims to be ex British Army).

Your Air Force, like ours, makes daily use of Turkish air space and Turkish bases (Incirlik and Diyarbakir) to support operations in northern Syria and Iraq.

I have met many senior military and civilian officials but I have yet once to hear anti-American language. Anti-American popularism is widespread across the world: the same protestors will burn an American flag and then an instant later being queuing around the corner for their consular interviews.
 
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Furthermore, there’s never been a Golden period of US - Turkish Relations. The 2000s dominated by Iraq; the 1990s by... Iraq; the 1980s by arms embargoes (as was the 1970s); the 1960s by the Jupiter Missile crisis...and so on. Yet through all this time - including today - there has been close cooperation between US and Turkish Forces. Not easy (I should know) yet nonetheless cooperative. Why would you want to stop this?
 
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I didn’t miss your points; I believe addressed them in earlier postings. Turkey is a difficult country for a variety of reasons. Its history means it does not trust other countries, and especially alliances. There is no love between Turkey and Russia; indeed, it is only because of Russian involvement in Syria that results in Erdogan having a dialogue with Putin. Putin and Erdogan are similar characters (and very much like Trump) but these relationships are ephemeral. Geographically, Turkey remains vitally important to European security. I believe Turkey was right in 2003 not to stick their hands on the mangle of Saddam Hussein’s Iraq. Time has proven this to have been a sound decision. Moreover, Turkey does not tolerate Isis and has been extremely active in arresting suspects and interrupting attacks. This came to a head after a series of bombings in 2015. Prior to this the threat, Turkish concerns were (and remain) primus inter pares the PKK and YPG as they have killed several orders of magnitude of Turks - including Kurds - than IS have. Moreover, without Turkish cooperation, hundreds of foreign fighters would have slipped back into Europe without detection. And netted amongst that are some who have claimed to have undertaken humanitarian work for PYD, including the ginger fibber Joe Robinson (qv claims to be ex British Army).

Your Air Force, like ours, makes daily use of Turkish air space and Turkish bases (Incirlik and Diyarbakir) to support operations in northern Syria and Iraq.

I have met many senior military and civilian officials but I have yet once to hear anti-American language. Anti-American popularism is widespread across the world: the same protestors will burn an American flag and then an instant later being queuing around the corner for their consular interviews.

You judge a country by the average Joe. Remember that. When I see masses of people burning the American Flag it does make a great case for Hellfire diplomacy. Countries are judged on what we see, and experience. Why do you think most Americans don't give a toss about 75 percent of the world?

Incirlik is a domino used by the Turks, and they had best be careful. If Trump is willing to pull out of South Korea, then the Turks are rightly fucked. Imagine what would happen if the Turks tried to enter an American military installation to arrest Senior American Officers. That kind of behavior can not go unpunished but an "ally" would not think of doing that in the first place.

You keep going on about European Security, but you miss the fact that I am more worried about American security. High tech weapons in the hands of an unfriendly country is more worrying then masses of displaced persons swarming into Europe short term. Long term the reality is that America and Europe are heading for a nasty divorce.
 
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But the point is you don’t see anti-US protests in Turkey. There’s not the will and the government cracks down on any form of protest. I’ve never seen any protests ivo the US embassy nor the HOM residence in Ankara although the local council did name the street the present embassy is on ‘Zeyten Dali Caddesi’ (Olive Branch Street) and the site of the new Embassy in Balgat ‘Malcolm X Sokak’.

When I studied in Îstanbul, I was the only native English speaker in my masters’ programme. Naturally I was the target of some very honest comment about the UK and the US. Some of it was rhetoric; most of it was wide-eyed conspiracy theory, however, none of that was ever personal. Many of those I studied with had spent time in the US both as students and in some cases as senior military officers. In my four years living in Turkey never once did I feel personally threatened nor did I hide my nationality nor where I worked (Notwithstanding two terrorists attacks which I was very close to). This was the same for my very many friends who worked in the US embassy. Perhaps one of the most clumsy decisions was to repatriate US families from Ankara and Istanbul two years ago. This sent a message that Turkey could not be trusted and it was unsafe to conduct business there. Along with the decision not to appoint a US ambassador, after Jon Bass left 16 months ago.

Incirlik first and foremost a Turkish base; the US element is an enclave within in and the Turks have full access to almost all of it, including the Wg HQ (but not the BX nor Commissary). Until a year ago there was also a substantial UK presence there. The Turks stick slavishly to both NATO Sofa and DECA and this allows for precisely this action (as would happen at a US base on the UK). So Yours is not a valid comparison. But the US would not suffer that much if they withdrew. TURAF would, as most of the infrastructure costs are picked up by ODC(T). The US, like the UK, can operate from elsewhere such as Doha and Cyprus.

I’m a keen student of history, which was inculcated on me when I was seconded to your State Department in 2002 for a couple of years. Twice in the 20th Century the US adopted isolationism as a foreign policy and seems destined to follow a singularly narrow path again. It didn’t work on the first two occasions; why would it - in a Globalised world - work this time?

NATO has many faults but one thing it has done has stopped interstate war between first world world countries. NATO is a sum of its parts and rarely understood by outside observers. It’s a mutual benefit society; everyone has the same vote and contributes broadly according to affordability. NATO doesn’t have its own Forces but relies but on its members to contribute, as in Afghanistan.
 
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But the point is you don’t see anti-US protests in Turkey. There’s not the will and the government cracks down on any form of protest. I’ve never seen any protests ivo the US embassy nor the HOM residence in Ankara although the local council did name the street the present embassy is on ‘Zeyten Dali Caddesi’ (Olive Branch Street) and the site of the new Embassy in Balgat ‘Malcolm X Sokak’.

When I studied in Îstanbul, I was the only native English speaker in my masters’ programme. Naturally I was the target of some very honest comment about the UK and the US. Some of it was rhetoric; most of it was wide-eyed conspiracy theory, however, none of that was ever personal. Many of those I studied with had spent time in the US both as students and in some cases as senior military officers. In my four years living in Turkey never once did I feel personally threatened nor did I hide my nationality nor where I worked (Notwithstanding two terrorists attacks which I was very close to). This was the same for my very many friends who worked in the US embassy. Perhaps one of the most clumsy decisions was to repatriate US families from Ankara and Istanbul two years ago. This sent a message that Turkey could not be trusted and it was unsafe to conduct business there. Along with the decision not to appoint a US ambassador, after Jon Bass left 16 months ago.

Incirlik first and foremost a Turkish base; the US element is an enclave within in and the Turks have full access to almost all of it, including the Wg HQ (but not the BX nor Commissary). Until a year ago there was also a substantial UK presence there. The Turks stick slavishly to both NATO Sofa and DECA and this allows for precisely this action (as would happen at a US base on the UK). So Yours is not a valid comparison. But the US would not suffer that much if they withdrew. TURAF would, as most of the infrastructure costs are picked up by ODC(T). The US, like the UK, can operate from elsewhere such as Doha and Cyprus.

I’m a keen student of history, which was inculcated on me when I was seconded to your State Department in 2002 for a couple of years. Twice in the 20th Century the US adopted isolationism as a foreign policy and seems destined to follow a singularly narrow path again. It didn’t work on the first two occasions; why would it - in a Globalised world - work this time?

NATO has many faults but one thing it has done has stopped interstate war between first world world countries. NATO is a sum of its parts and rarely understood by outside observers. It’s a mutual benefit society; everyone has the same vote and contributes broadly according to affordability. NATO doesn’t have its own Forces but relies but on its members to contribute, as in Afghanistan.

Perhaps we don't trust the Turks and removing the dependents was the smartest course of action. I would not feel comfortable having my family in a country like Turkey tbh. None of the Airmen out here would either. So call it clumsy all you want but the Turks are not quite viewed as nicely as they once were. You still don't get to arrest US Military personal willy nilly.

Detaining Americans is also not something that is taken very lightly over here. The Turks screwed the pooch with Brunson, and they should know it. Americans don't view Turkey as a friendly place anymore. It's ok not like people in other countries and realize it might be time to cut ties.

I don't think to many people here want to be the world's policemen anymore. It tends to be a lose lose game for the US. It is easier to shoot you and move on with our own interests. The US will never fully withdraw from the world, but we don't have to try to shape it as much as we used to either. All the average American sees is how much the world hates us, and how fecked up the world is. Europe is slowly going to pot.

NATO however is starting to turn into an organization where the takers get to much sway. If you want the alliance to remain everybody gets to contribute equally, if that does not happen it does lead to hard feelings. Then the public in certain countries does start to question why the free loaders get to free load?
 
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Perhaps we don't trust the Turks and removing the dependents was the smartest course of action. I would not feel comfortable having my family in a country like Turkey tbh. None of the Airmen out here would either. So call it clumsy all you want but the Turks are not quite viewed as nicely as they once were. You still don't get to arrest US Military personal willy nilly.

Detaining Americans is also not something that is taken very lightly over here. The Turks screwed the pooch with Brunson, and they should know it. Americans don't view Turkey as a friendly place anymore. It's ok not like people in other countries and realize it might be time to cut ties.

I don't think to many people here want to be the world's policemen anymore. It tends to be a lose lose game for the US. It is easier to shoot you and move on with our own interests. The US will never fully withdraw from the world, but we don't have to try to shape it as much as we used to either. All the average American sees is how much the world hates us, and how fecked up the world is. Europe is slowly going to pot.

NATO however is starting to turn into an organization where the takers get to much sway. If you want the alliance to remain everybody gets to contribute equally, if that does not happen it does lead to hard feelings. Then the public in certain countries does start to question why the free loaders get to free load?

I wish the US luck in its Isolationist, binary, post-truth world. The US is a great country but I think it will feel a little bit lonely and a little bit left out of the big boys games by volunteering to give up it’s hegemony. Who knows? The world might be a safer place…
 
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I wish the US luck in its Isolationist, binary, post-truth world. The US is a great country but I think it will feel a little bit lonely and a little bit left out of the big boys games by volunteering to give up it’s hegemony. Who knows? The world might be a safer place…
Oh a little Splendid Isolationism every now and then is not a bad thing. The world could be a safer place...or the world could get tired of sucking Russian and Chinese dick? Perhaps it is best for the US to take a time out every once in a while so the world can realize just how not horrible we are??
 
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Oh a little Splendid Isolationism every now and then is not a bad thing. The world could be a safer place...or the world could get tired of sucking Russian and Chinese dick? Perhaps it is best for the US to take a time out every once in a while so the world can realize just how not horrible we are??
Just a question Jonesey: how widely have you traveled outside of CONUS?
 
Just a question Jonesey: how widely have you traveled outside of CONUS?
Now before you accuse me of being Anti Muslim and picking solely on people of that faith, lets take a look at the actions of another country like say Germany...

Their media has quite the Anti American bias, why would Der Spiegel's senior leadership allow blatantly false stories to be published that are pretty Anti American in the first place?? After all are the Krauts not our allies?? Their publication degenerated quite a few Americans, in order to promote an agenda about America that people want to believe in Europe. Are those actions that should merit support from Americans? To be slandered to such a degree does not build for a strong relationship, or even suggest we are chums. The difference is that many Americans are willing to rethink post WW2 agreements and ask "is this worth it anymore"? Loyalty is a two way street not a one way street.
 
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Now before you accuse me of being Anti Muslim and picking solely on people of that faith, lets take a look at the actions of another country like say Germany...

Their media has quite the Anti American bias, why would Der Spiegel's senior leadership allow blatantly false stories to be published that are pretty Anti American in the first place?? After all are the Krauts not our allies?? Their publication degenerated quite a few Americans, in order to promote an agenda about America that people want to believe in Europe. Are those actions that should merit support from Americans? To be slandered to such a degree does not build for a strong relationship, or even suggest we are chums. The difference is that many Americans are willing to rethink post WW2 agreements and ask "is this worth it anymore"? Loyalty is a two way street not a one way street.
That’s not an aswer to my simple question. I’ve never implied that your are ‘Anti-Muslim ‘. Oh and if the US takes a Hegemony Holiday (I think I’ll claim IPR on that), they won’t be able to walz back in and reclaim it. I’ll think you’ll find others will be settling in quite nicely, thank you.
 

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