Things hotting up with Turkey

Yes I understand that in relation to the Falklands. However it is unlikely (very) that we will get involved in any action against Syria against Assad, especially in support of Turkeys adventures. Values on the international stage or not.

The bottom line has been 'is this in our interests'. And if Uncle Sam decides its not in his interest, I doubt if we will play. We have cut Defence too much.

Who was it who allegedly said "there are no votes in defence". Clue: it wasn't a Labour Chancellor.
You need to go back to the quote that sparked this.
The quote being " geography doesn;t change "It doesn't relate exclusively to the FI, rather the quote relates to the point of individuals in power being transient but their territories being permanent.
 
Suggestions for Greece:

1. Ask the Russians for help in preventing the refugees from entering Greece.

2. Order the military conscription of all refugees, who are sent back to Syria to fight.
 
I had to go looking for - and google this - what with coronovirus keeping everything else from our MSM :( !!

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Published by: Matina Stevis-Gridneff and Patrick Kingsley, The NEW YORK TIMES, on Friday 13 March 2020.


Confrontation at Greek Border

The country is winding down an aggressive two-week operation to move tens of thousands of migrants to its frontiers. But relations with Greece and Europe have suffered.


BRUSSELS — Turkey has signaled that it is winding down its two-week operation to aid the movement of tens of thousands of people toward Europe, following a tough on-the-ground response from Greek border guards and a tepid diplomatic reaction from European politicians.

Migrants at the Greek-Turkish land border began to be transported back to Istanbul by bus this week, witnesses at the border said, de-escalating a standoff that initially set off fears of another European migration crisis. Greek officials said the number of attempted border crossings had dwindled from thousands a day to a few hundred, and none were successful on Friday, even as sporadic exchanges of tear-gas with Turkish security forces continued.

Also Friday, Turkish officials announced that three human smugglers had each been sentenced to 125 years in prison for their roles in the death of a Syrian toddler, Alan Kurdi, whose drowning came to epitomize an earlier migration crisis, in 2015.

That announcement and the week’s other developments were interpreted by experts and European politicians as signals to Europe that the Turkish authorities were once again willing to police their borders and quell a second wave of migration.

It follows a tense period in which President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey attempted to engineer the reverse: a new migration crisis on Europe’s borders . . . .

. . . . On Feb. 28, the Turkish government announced it would no longer stop migrants trying to reach Europe, and it then drove hundreds to the threshold of Greece, live-streaming the process to encourage more to follow.

The move was perceived as an attempt to rally European support for Turkey’s military campaign in northern Syria, and more European aid for the four million refugees inside Turkey.

On at least one occasion, Turkish officials even forced migrants to leave. In a video clip filmed onboard a bus ferrying people to the border, reluctant migrants were shown being forced off the vehicle at gunpoint by officers in plain clothes, and beaten when they resisted.

Marc Pierini, a former European Union envoy to Turkey, called it “the first-ever refugee exodus, albeit a limited one, fully organized by one government against another.”

The border clash not only stirred fears of a new migration crisis, but it also saw both countries react with anger and tough tactics. The Greeks have been condemned for suspending asylum applications and detaining and returning some migrants to Turkey.

To foment a sense of crisis, Turkish security forces fired tear gas over the border at their Greek counterparts and provided journalists with footage of aggressive Greek responses to migrants. Mr. Erdogan accused Greek officials of behaving like officials in Nazi Germany.

But the Turks used aggressive tactics of their own.

Footage captured by The New York Times showed Turkish security forces standing aside to allow migrants to tear down part of a fence dividing Turkey and Greece. And other footage emerged of a Turkish vessel pursuing a Greek coast guard vessel in the Aegean, and of a Turkish armored vehicle ramming a border fence between the two countries.

The Turkish Interior Ministry then sent more guards to the border — not to prevent people from leaving without documents, but to stop Greece from returning them by force, according to the Turkish interior minister, Suleyman Soylu . . .
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I had to go looking for - and google this - what with coronovirus keeping everything else from our MSM :( !!

+ + + + + + + + + + + + +

Published by: Matina Stevis-Gridneff and Patrick Kingsley, The NEW YORK TIMES, on Friday 13 March 2020.


Confrontation at Greek Border

The country is winding down an aggressive two-week operation to move tens of thousands of migrants to its frontiers. But relations with Greece and Europe have suffered.


BRUSSELS — Turkey has signaled that it is winding down its two-week operation to aid the movement of tens of thousands of people toward Europe, following a tough on-the-ground response from Greek border guards and a tepid diplomatic reaction from European politicians.

Migrants at the Greek-Turkish land border began to be transported back to Istanbul by bus this week, witnesses at the border said, de-escalating a standoff that initially set off fears of another European migration crisis. Greek officials said the number of attempted border crossings had dwindled from thousands a day to a few hundred, and none were successful on Friday, even as sporadic exchanges of tear-gas with Turkish security forces continued.

Also Friday, Turkish officials announced that three human smugglers had each been sentenced to 125 years in prison for their roles in the death of a Syrian toddler, Alan Kurdi, whose drowning came to epitomize an earlier migration crisis, in 2015.

That announcement and the week’s other developments were interpreted by experts and European politicians as signals to Europe that the Turkish authorities were once again willing to police their borders and quell a second wave of migration.

It follows a tense period in which President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey attempted to engineer the reverse: a new migration crisis on Europe’s borders . . . .



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Wrong photos. Where are all the ones with women and little kids? A jackpot if you can find a toddler with blue eyes and fair hair.
 
With luck for the rest of us, either the Turkish military and the Anatolian peasantry will get sick of Erdogan soon and politics will return to what used to pass for 'normal', guided democracy in Asia Minor, or he'll go the full 'Recip the Magnificent' and the rest of the world will start treating him as the central asiatic despot that he wants to be, with punishing sanctions and diplomatic isolation.

'Turkey hosts more than 4 million refugees, not all of them Syrian. Its economy is not in good shape, not least because of Erdogan’s populist moves and a propensity to fuel deficits and inflation through massive projects of questionable economic value. Europeans would be more willing to listen to Erdogan, as would NATO, if he did not resort to intemperate language. An example is the claim made March 10 that “there is no difference between those images on the Greece border and what the Nazis did.”

'Erdogan constantly tries to play the United States, Russia, the European Union, the Syrian regime and the Gulf monarchies against one another. His decision to feed Syrian Turkmen, Chechens and European jihadists of North African origin into the Libyan conflict has not gone down well with NATO or the commission. The United States is furious at his buying of Russian anti-missile defence systems, which are incompatible with NATO systems. Many Western officials wonder whether Turkey is still a member of NATO.

'Nor has the Turkish leader's adventurist policy in northern Syrian gone down well in Paris, Washington or Berlin. Erdogan claims he is protecting more than 1 million Syrians caught in a trap in Idlib province between Syrian regime troops, strongly backed by the Russian Air Force, which can outgun its Turkish counterpart and Turkish troops, which occupy an increasingly narrow buffer in Syria.

'Turkish troops have spent most of their time hunting Kurdish forces, the key element in the fight against remnants of the Islamic State, than protecting Syrian civilians. Erdogan does not make any secret of his support for hard-line Islamic groups, be it in Syria or elsewhere. This puts him at odds with the United States, NATO, the EU Commission, Syria and Tunisia. Backed by its western neighbour, Tunisian President Kais Saied reportedly turned down Erdogan’s request two months ago for access to a base in southern Tunisia that would help him deploy military forces in Libya.

'Turkey is playing so many geopolitical games across so many boards that it is tripping up in cross wires of contradictions that it cannot solve. Erdogan faces mounting opposition to his policies at home, including from former founding members of his Justice and Development Party. Major Turkish cities voted in favour of the opposition in last year’s municipal elections, despite the president forcing a second vote in Istanbul.

'Erdogan’s policies in Syria have left the Turkish head of state very isolated. He cannot snarl at Putin, US President Donald Trump, French President Emmanuel Macron and von der Leyen all at once. Hubris has its limits and Erdogan is beginning to look slightly ridiculous on the international stage. The Turks, who are a proud people, hardly relish the sight of their president making a fool of himself on the international stage and Erdogan's bark is increasingly worse than his bite.'


 
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Curiouser and curiouser. A sly deal for all that wonderful Turkish-manufactured PPE?

'Turkey is still producing and delivering parts for U.S. F-35 jets despite being suspended from the program nearly a year ago over its purchase of a Russian anti-aircraft defense system, Defence Industry Director Ismail Demir said on Thursday.

'Washington announced last July, when the first Russian S-400 units arrived in Turkey, that it was suspending Ankara from the F-35 program and expected to “wind down” Turkey’s involvement by March 2020. The United States also said the purchase meant Turkey could be subjected to sanctions under U.S. legislation aimed at discouraging defense purchases from Moscow. Turkey was both a parts manufacturer and major buyer of the Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth jets. Washington says the S-400s jeopardize the jets - which Ankara denies - and are incompatible with NATO defense systems.

“There was an understanding in the United States that nothing would be bought from Turkey for the F-35s after March 2020, but that approach is no longer there,” Demir said. He suggested the global coronavirus pandemic meant the March deadline no longer applied, without elaborating. “Our companies continue their production and delivery,” Demir said in an online interview, adding that Turkey remained a “loyal partner” of the F-35 program. Taking Turkey out of the project would cost other members of the program up to $600 million, he said.

'Turkish officials have said the deployment of the S-400s has been put back from April because of the coronavirus outbreak, but will ultimately go ahead. Demir said a new timetable for activating the S-400s would be drawn up once operations were back to full capacity after the outbreak.'


 
Curiouser and curiouser. A sly deal for all that wonderful Turkish-manufactured PPE?

'Turkey is still producing and delivering parts for U.S. F-35 jets despite being suspended from the program nearly a year ago over its purchase of a Russian anti-aircraft defense system, Defence Industry Director Ismail Demir said on Thursday.

'Washington announced last July, when the first Russian S-400 units arrived in Turkey, that it was suspending Ankara from the F-35 program and expected to “wind down” Turkey’s involvement by March 2020. The United States also said the purchase meant Turkey could be subjected to sanctions under U.S. legislation aimed at discouraging defense purchases from Moscow. Turkey was both a parts manufacturer and major buyer of the Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth jets. Washington says the S-400s jeopardize the jets - which Ankara denies - and are incompatible with NATO defense systems.

“There was an understanding in the United States that nothing would be bought from Turkey for the F-35s after March 2020, but that approach is no longer there,” Demir said. He suggested the global coronavirus pandemic meant the March deadline no longer applied, without elaborating. “Our companies continue their production and delivery,” Demir said in an online interview, adding that Turkey remained a “loyal partner” of the F-35 program. Taking Turkey out of the project would cost other members of the program up to $600 million, he said.

'Turkish officials have said the deployment of the S-400s has been put back from April because of the coronavirus outbreak, but will ultimately go ahead. Demir said a new timetable for activating the S-400s would be drawn up once operations were back to full capacity after the outbreak.'


I can't remember the details now, but Turkish aerospace companies were producing something like 15% of components by value for the F-35 and, of course, were setting up the European engine repair hub. I met Ismail Demir when he came to London both for DSEI 2017 and Farnborough 2016 (which ended the week in an attempted coup). He is the ex head of Turk Technik - the engineering arm of Turkish Airlines. Quite a survivor and a very hard-headed negotiator and confidente of Erdogan.
 
Curiouser and curiouser. A sly deal for all that wonderful Turkish-manufactured PPE?

'Turkey is still producing and delivering parts for U.S. F-35 jets despite being suspended from the program nearly a year ago over its purchase of a Russian anti-aircraft defense system, Defence Industry Director Ismail Demir said on Thursday.

'Washington announced last July, when the first Russian S-400 units arrived in Turkey, that it was suspending Ankara from the F-35 program and expected to “wind down” Turkey’s involvement by March 2020. The United States also said the purchase meant Turkey could be subjected to sanctions under U.S. legislation aimed at discouraging defense purchases from Moscow. Turkey was both a parts manufacturer and major buyer of the Lockheed Martin F-35 stealth jets. Washington says the S-400s jeopardize the jets - which Ankara denies - and are incompatible with NATO defense systems.

“There was an understanding in the United States that nothing would be bought from Turkey for the F-35s after March 2020, but that approach is no longer there,” Demir said. He suggested the global coronavirus pandemic meant the March deadline no longer applied, without elaborating. “Our companies continue their production and delivery,” Demir said in an online interview, adding that Turkey remained a “loyal partner” of the F-35 program. Taking Turkey out of the project would cost other members of the program up to $600 million, he said.

'Turkish officials have said the deployment of the S-400s has been put back from April because of the coronavirus outbreak, but will ultimately go ahead. Demir said a new timetable for activating the S-400s would be drawn up once operations were back to full capacity after the outbreak.'


Rather unsurprisingly, this sort of thing happens quite frequently. When I was working in Afghanistan in 2016, a FRAGO was sent out by USFOR-A (US Forces - Afghanistan) to NATO that due to Human Rights Violations, People Trafficking, Money Laundering, and Bribery (etc.) a named service provider [COUGH] Ecolog [COUGH] was not to be awarded any further contracts, with any existing contracts to be wound up. Absolutely nothing happened, the company in question was awarded more large contracts, including a number by US Forces in a Kandahar.

However in this particular case I’ve a feeling that Covid-19 measures have simply slipped the closure of Turkey’s F35 facilities to the right.
 
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I can't remember the details now, but Turkish aerospace companies were producing something like 15% of components by value for the F-35 and, of course, were setting up the European engine repair hub. I met Ismail Demir when he came to London both for DSEI 2017 and Farnborough 2016 (which ended the week in an attempted coup). He is the ex head of Turk Technik - the engineering arm of Turkish Airlines. Quite a survivor and a very hard-headed negotiator and confidente of Erdogan.
Do we know what/which "bits" of the aircraft, comprise that 15% ?!

"Taking Turkey out of the project would cost other members of the program up to $600 million, he said".

Presumably - for economy of manufacture - all components are not dual-sourced, but in the great scheme of things, $600 million does not seem too prohibitive to move/transfer - or replicate - the unique manufacturing equipment/jigs/etc now in Turkey ?!
 
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Do we know what/which "bits" of the aircraft, comprise that 15% ?!

"Taking Turkey out of the project would cost other members of the program up to $600 million, he said".

Presumably - for economy of manufacture - all components are not dual-sourced, but in the great scheme of things, $600 million does not seem too prohibitive to move/transfer - or replicate - the unique manufacturing equipment/jigs/etc now in Turkey ?!
That's 600 million in increased costs to F-35 customers, not 600 million in sales volume. The amount of sales volume involved will certainly be much, much larger than 600 million.
 
That's 600 million in increased costs to F-35 customers, not 600 million in sales volume. The amount of sales volume involved will certainly be much, much larger than 600 million.
Why are you responding to something I did NOT write ?!
 
Why are you responding to something I did NOT write ?!
I quoted your post which said the following:
Do we know what/which "bits" of the aircraft, comprise that 15% ?!

"Taking Turkey out of the project would cost other members of the program up to $600 million, he said".

Presumably - for economy of manufacture - all components are not dual-sourced, but in the great scheme of things, $600 million does not seem too prohibitive to move/transfer - or replicate - the unique manufacturing equipment/jigs/etc now in Turkey ?!
You quoted someone else as saying that the sum in question is $600 million, and then raised a question of your own using the $600 million sum.

I'm saying that the the $600 million is being stated as the increase in cost. This means that the amount of business in question is much greater than $600 million. Therefore the amount of work involved in moving that much business to other suppliers elsewhere will be much greater than would be required to move just $600 million in business.

I'm not sure what you are objecting to.
 
Discussion about nothing. Door open, nag gone.

Since Turkey is out of the F-35 project, and orders which make up for Turkey is not going to now get, have been taken up by Japan and other nations, the write off involved however much that has, and will be, has been accepted as the cost of maintaining the security which may otherwise have been compromised by Turkey’s S-400 purchase.

the U.S. has found alternate suppliers for all but a dozen components Turkey is producing. The Pentagon’s F-35 program executive testified in Congress that he expects Turkey will be phased out on schedule, by March 2020. LM and P & W, he said, have “spectacular progress” finding alternate suppliers. There remain 11 items only on the airframe side, and on the engines, one: integrated bladed rotors, IBR’s.”

Meanwhile with its incursions into Syria and Libya, is flirtations with Russia and those terrorist organisations it has colluded with have not gone down well with it Western/NATO ‘allies’ which it has been p*ssing off for a while now. Turkey’s active and passive support for ISIS and other Islamist extremist groups has been “very well documented,” said Elizabeth Prodromou, a professor at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. “There have been real concerns about Turkey’s willingness to provide a wide range of support for groups that the U.S. and the West and NATO consider associated with ISIS,” she said.
Former ISIS members now working withTurkish-backed forces and include commanders, brigade leaders, recruiting officers and co-ordinators working directly with the Turkish intelligence services.

The database shows just a fraction of the depth and extent of Turkish collusion with ISIS. Multiple prominent ISIS commanders and fighters now operate openly as commanders in militias funded, armed, trained and controlled by Turkey and work in direct cooperation with the Turkish intelligence services (MIT), and all are part of a chain of command reaching directly to Ankara and president Erdogan.

Some are known to have passed through Turkey when leaving ISIS as their defeat became apparent, taking the return path on the ‘jihadist highway’ which brought tens of thousands of jihadist fighters and their families into Syria via Turkish soil, in both tacit and active collusion with the Turkish state.

In name, Turkey is a part of the International Coalition against ISIS. In reality, it is a state sponsor of terrorism funding and backing tens of thousands of jihadi fighters, including many with direct links to ISIS.

Erdogan’s bid to become the technological leader and major arms supplier to Islamic nations is not quite the bright vision it seemed. While definitely technologically more advanced than most, many of its major military joint projects relied heavily on US/Western knowhow. Some of these going sour by unreasonable demands made by the Turks. If Turkey continues to upset the US U.S. authorities could start looking at potential sanctions against a wide range of Turkish firms under the U.S. Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act (CAATSA).

Turkey’s existing defence products and its manufacturing and technology infrastructure are fully structured around its alliances with the West. According to SASAD figures, almost 40 percent of intermediate defence goods made by Turkey, including some critical technologies, have been procured from abroad. Abandoning decades of cooperation and procurement from Western companies and restructuring the industry with other producers with different standards would be a very painful process

The TCG Anadolu now supports a ski jump that helicopters won’t use as there are no replacements for the F-35B’s that are not now coming. RR is no longer interested in its joint venture with the Turkish stealth fighter TF-X although Turkey is keen to try and revive the partnership that withered under Turkey’s demands on rights to technology.

Temel Kotil, CEO of Turkish Aerospace Industries, is now looking to Asian nation for co-production of TF-X composites and considering Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh and Kazakhstan as potential partners or buyers of the 'first big Muslim fighter jet. Malaysia has also been sought as a partner on the Hurkus trainer and light attack aircraft.
 
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What is interesting is while Turkey looks at developing a 5th gen indigenous fighter, Erdogan has almost single handedly destroyed the Turkish Air Force.

By deciding to go with the S-400 he lost the F-35’s, which were to replace the ageing F-16’s, along with the work the F-35 parts provided Turkish factories; and, his earlier purging of all elements of the armed forces of suspected Gulanists, stripped the Air Force of a huge number of pilots.
 
What is interesting is while Turkey looks at developing a 5th gen indigenous fighter, Erdogan has almost single handedly destroyed the Turkish Air Force.

By deciding to go with the S-400 he lost the F-35’s, which were to replace the ageing F-16’s, along with the work the F-35 parts provided Turkish factories; and, his earlier purging of all elements of the armed forces of suspected Gulanists, stripped the Air Force of a huge number of pilots.
That should make any Israeli overflights much easier then. He must be a Mossad plant...
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