Things hotting up with Turkey

What benefit has the UK garnered from our special relationship ? we surrendered the empire on US demand after you bankrupted the nation.
We didn't bankrupt you, you did that all by yourself.

You seem to oddly believe we owed you everything you got from the USA during the war.

Honestly

We are not one of your commonwealths or dominions.
We owe your crown no fealty then or now.
We had no mutual defence treaties with you, or had any obligations whatsoever to go to war because you did.
What other nation would hand over for free all the Equipment you received under Lend Lease? did your soviet allies do so? At least the Poles brought Enigma with them

That we did aid you and it cost you nothing unless at the end of the war you decided to keep items under the LL act is YOUR choice. Even then a Dakota (US C-47 or 53) which cost the US taxpayer $88K dollars cost you the UK taxpayer $8K dollars if you wanted to keep it.

Under Lend Lease you could-
A- return equipment
B- dump equipment
C- certify equipment used or destroyed in action

without paying a cent towards it

D- Keep equipment at vastly reduced cost to you
 
The Times were pushing big style for Western involvement in Syria in 2013 after the death of Marie Colvin in 2012. Cameron seemed to be all for it but luckly Obama showed little enthusiasm. That was my impression anyway.
Not quite how it was - UK Parliament voted against, which gave Obama a get out as he then put it to Congress, Congress voted against force. The surrender monkey nation remained pro force...go figure.

MPs' vote halts UK action over Syria

In Syria, America Had No Good Options
 
We didn't bankrupt you, you did that all by yourself.

You seem to oddly believe we owed you everything you got from the USA during the war.

Honestly

We are not one of your commonwealths or dominions.
We owe your crown no fealty then or now.
We had no mutual defence treaties with you, or had any obligations whatsoever to go to war because you did.
What other nation would hand over for free all the Equipment you received under Lend Lease? did your soviet allies do so? At least the Poles brought Enigma with them

That we did aid you and it cost you nothing unless at the end of the war you decided to keep items under the LL act is YOUR choice. Even then a Dakota (US C-47 or 53) which cost the US taxpayer $88K dollars cost you the UK taxpayer $8K dollars if you wanted to keep it.

Under Lend Lease you could-
A- return equipment
B- dump equipment
C- certify equipment used or destroyed in action

without paying a cent towards it

D- Keep equipment at vastly reduced cost to you
He's one of a few site historians who got their knowledge from Victor and Commando as well as the Morning Star.
 
We didn't bankrupt you, you did that all by yourself.

You seem to oddly believe we owed you everything you got from the USA during the war.

Honestly

We are not one of your commonwealths or dominions.
We owe your crown no fealty then or now.
We had no mutual defence treaties with you, or had any obligations whatsoever to go to war because you did.
What other nation would hand over for free all the Equipment you received under Lend Lease? did your soviet allies do so? At least the Poles brought Enigma with them

That we did aid you and it cost you nothing unless at the end of the war you decided to keep items under the LL act is YOUR choice. Even then a Dakota (US C-47 or 53) which cost the US taxpayer $88K dollars cost you the UK taxpayer $8K dollars if you wanted to keep it.

Under Lend Lease you could-
A- return equipment
B- dump equipment
C- certify equipment used or destroyed in action

without paying a cent towards it

D- Keep equipment at vastly reduced cost to you
You keep telling them but you are wasting your time.
BTW I would have been in their camp until things were quite bluntly pointed out to me by a very nice American lass about 17 years ago.
You have missed out that the UK got the lions share of the Marshall plan entirely without strings.
WSC wasted a lot trying to keep the Empire and the Labour Party used the rest to set up the Welfare State.
 
In 2015 I wrote:

don't have time to explain this right now, but turkey is playing s very dangerous game in Syria.

It is attempting to expand its borders to recover part of its lost empire, and it is avoiding fighting ISIL because of its pious Muslim population.

Neither of these are helping anyone, and risk a further escalation of a dangerous situation.

Right now those cheering them on are akin to the idiots who cheered WW1 troops off to fight the Kaiser and "be home by Christmas".

Instantly people like Brotherton Lad responded telling me I was wrong.

Its five years on lads...... Turkish troops are now in Syria.
It comes down to trust. Once you lose it in the media narrative, your in a jungle of claim and counter claim and unsure who to believe, so you steered your own course..... Are the white helmets heroes, did the Syrian government really use gas at a stage where they're were winning, or did the serbs mortar a Sarajevo market.

Those in the industry of trying to shoot down any viewpoint opposed to the narrative, aren't trying to dig out any truth, but simply shut down uncomfortable debate. Rather, they're should be going after the briefers of the media narrative and ensuring its not just their own best guesses, or one sides narrative peddled as propaganda.
 
It comes down to trust. Once you lose it in the media narrative, your in a jungle of claim and counter claim and unsure who to believe, so you steered your own course..... Are the white helmets heroes, did the Syrian government really use gas at a stage where they're were winning, or did the serbs mortar a Sarajevo market.

Those in the industry of trying to shoot down any viewpoint opposed to the narrative, aren't trying to dig out any truth, but simply shut down uncomfortable debate. Rather, they're should be going after the briefers of the media narrative and ensuring its not just their own best guesses, or one sides narrative peddled as propaganda.
Essentially, Erdogan has a significant electoral problem with the mass of refugees in Turkey, especially those living "off-grid". There is in fact a limited humanitarian crisis at the moment, since there is a large and well established refugee infrastructure, but it is in his strategic interests to play it up.

What I think he wants is a buffer state to which he can return all the refugees currently in Turkey, and acts as a barrier to Kurdish ambitions. Ideologically, he'd see this as Muslim Brotherhood focused and under a degree of malleable Turkmen control. I don't think he has much truck with HTS/AQ, but they have proved impossible to eradicate politically in Idlib.

One perverse advantage of the current fighting is that it seems to have greatly reduced HTS combat strength, which would make it easier for Erdogan to take direct control of Idlib in future.
 
Erdogan asking the seemingly impossible. For Putin to stand Russian forces down whilst Erdogan battles Assad’s govt forces, ‘on behalf of the Syrian people’. Clearly he hasn’t got the response he wanted from the NATO meeting:

Speaking in Istanbul, Erdogan said he had told Putin in a phone call to stand aside and let Turkey “do what is necessary” with the Syrian government. He said Turkey does not intend to leave Syria right now.

“We did not go there because we were invited by (Syrian President Bashar al-Assad). We went there because we were invited by the people of Syria. We don’t intend to leave before the people of Syria say, ‘Okay, this is done,’” Erdogan added.
 
Erdogan asking the seemingly impossible. For Putin to stand Russian forces down whilst Erdogan battles Assad’s govt forces, ‘on behalf of the Syrian people’. Clearly he hasn’t got the response he wanted from the NATO meeting:

Speaking in Istanbul, Erdogan said he had told Putin in a phone call to stand aside and let Turkey “do what is necessary” with the Syrian government. He said Turkey does not intend to leave Syria right now.

“We did not go there because we were invited by (Syrian President Bashar al-Assad). We went there because we were invited by the people of Syria. We don’t intend to leave before the people of Syria say, ‘Okay, this is done,’” Erdogan added.
More practice for the Russian Air Force.
 
Well where is the Turkish Air Force? They do have some decent birds and did manage to shoot down a SU-24 a few years ago. Did they get that badly decimated in the purge
At the moment that would probably be a level of escalation Erdogan isn’t prepared to take just yet. That, the A2AD of Russian forces and the RuAF units there. That is unless Putin does indeed ‘stand aside’ which is obviously ‘highly unlikely’.
 
Looks like it’s not just Assad’s forces that are being targeted. Seems he’s going for those who support Assad’s regime such as Hezbollah in this case:

Turkish strikes on northwest Syria late on Friday killed nine members of Iran-backed Hezbollah and wounded 30 others, a commander in the regional alliance backing Syrian President Bashar al-Assad said.

The commander said on Saturday that the Turkish strikes targeted Hezbollah headquarters near the city of Saraqeb in Idlib, a flashpoint of fighting in recent days, using smart missiles and drones.
 

Deserter

On ROPS
On ROPs
We didn't bankrupt you, you did that all by yourself.

You seem to oddly believe we owed you everything you got from the USA during the war.

Honestly

We are not one of your commonwealths or dominions.
We owe your crown no fealty then or now.
We had no mutual defence treaties with you, or had any obligations whatsoever to go to war because you did.
What other nation would hand over for free all the Equipment you received under Lend Lease? did your soviet allies do so? At least the Poles brought Enigma with them

That we did aid you and it cost you nothing unless at the end of the war you decided to keep items under the LL act is YOUR choice. Even then a Dakota (US C-47 or 53) which cost the US taxpayer $88K dollars cost you the UK taxpayer $8K dollars if you wanted to keep it.

Under Lend Lease you could-
A- return equipment
B- dump equipment
C- certify equipment used or destroyed in action

without paying a cent towards it

D- Keep equipment at vastly reduced cost to you
You also paid for that massive flash over that beautiful tropical island in the 50's,....millions were still living in bomb damaged homes but at least our politicians proved the RAF could make a big bang....with Americas money.
 
At the moment that would probably be a level of escalation Erdogan isn’t prepared to take just yet. That, the A2AD of Russian forces and the RuAF units there. That is unless Putin does indeed ‘stand aside’ which is obviously ‘highly unlikely’.
Well the only way Edrogan is going to make the Russians pause, is to throat punch them.


The Pentagon seems to be telling the Department of State to eat a bag of dicks however.

But maybe his domestic support in Turkey will dive and a more Western oriented replacement might take the steering wheel. Or the Coronavirus kills him.
 
Last edited:
Erdogan asking the seemingly impossible. For Putin to stand Russian forces down whilst Erdogan battles Assad’s govt forces, ‘on behalf of the Syrian people’. Clearly he hasn’t got the response he wanted from the NATO meeting:

Speaking in Istanbul, Erdogan said he had told Putin in a phone call to stand aside and let Turkey “do what is necessary” with the Syrian government. He said Turkey does not intend to leave Syria right now.

“We did not go there because we were invited by (Syrian President Bashar al-Assad). We went there because we were invited by the people of Syria. We don’t intend to leave before the people of Syria say, ‘Okay, this is done,’” Erdogan added.
Blimey if only Hitler had thought of that one, we're not invading Poland we're under invite of the people of Poland
 
..... But maybe his domestic support in Turkey will dive and a more Western oriented replacement might take the steering wheel. Or the Coronavirus kills him.
One can only hope
 
At the moment that would probably be a level of escalation Erdogan isn’t prepared to take just yet. That, the A2AD of Russian forces and the RuAF units there. That is unless Putin does indeed ‘stand aside’ which is obviously ‘highly unlikely’.
We could see later today...

The game changer that has checked the regime advance appears to be the introduction of armed Turkish drones, that have inflicted significant damage and forced the surviving regime artillery to pull back, and Assad's forces with them.

We currently have the slightly bizarre situation of Russian jets turning the rebels to mincemeat and the Turks doing the same to the regime, whilst seemingly not trying to stop each other.

It is tempting to say that the Russians had miscalculated the Turkish use of armed drones and have current no counter to them, but I'm less sure that it is purely a tactical mistake.

Beyond this, not certain what is going on...
 
Essentially, Erdogan has a significant electoral problem with the mass of refugees in Turkey, especially those living "off-grid". There is in fact a limited humanitarian crisis at the moment, since there is a large and well established refugee infrastructure, but it is in his strategic interests to play it up.

What I think he wants is a buffer state to which he can return all the refugees currently in Turkey, and acts as a barrier to Kurdish ambitions. Ideologically, he'd see this as Muslim Brotherhood focused and under a degree of malleable Turkmen control. I don't think he has much truck with HTS/AQ, but they have proved impossible to eradicate politically in Idlib.

One perverse advantage of the current fighting is that it seems to have greatly reduced HTS combat strength, which would make it easier for Erdogan to take direct control of Idlib in future.
Its a perverse twist, that Assad probably is the only player who is trying to preserve the integrity of Syria. As the myriad of rebel groups if they're had won, would never have re-united the nation together (see Libya for example). The outside players like Turkey or Israel, have ulterior motives which in a nation we frown upon would be seen as bad as saddam.

For once we can thank parliament for growing a backbone and stating clearly we want nothing to do with another failed war.
 
Top