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Theyre cancelling the Carriers - OH NO THEYRE NOT

#1
Noticed this snippet of news, so much for the new carrier force and JSF getting the chop so Gordon can save money - they aren't even prostponing them.



THE Ministry of Defence is expected to give the final go-ahead next month for construction work to begin on a £3.8bn aircraft carrier order.
The two carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, will be built in a joint venture involving BAE Systems, Babcock and VT group, and will provide work on the Clyde and at Rosyth and Portsmouth.

Industry sources have been concerned that budgetary constraints would put back the order, leaving a huge gap in the workload at the yards.

On Friday BAE Systems announced it would be part of a consortium bidding for six fleet tankers for the UK Royal Fleet Auxiliary. The ships would be built in South Korea, but it is understood that contingency plans exist to relocate this work to the UK should the aircraft carrier order be delayed.

However, the manufacturing contracts for the aircraft carriers could be signed as early as this week, though some time next month is more likely, allowing steel to be cut later this year.

Defence Secretary Des Browne last week announced two contracts worth £50m at Rosyth which effectively signalled the Government's commitment to the carrier order.
The Scotsman
 
#2
Hello Sven,

THE Ministry of Defence is expected to give the final go-ahead next month for construction work to begin on a £3.8bn aircraft carrier order.
The two carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, will be built in a joint venture involving BAE Systems, Babcock and VT group, and will provide work on the Clyde and at Rosyth and Portsmouth.

Industry sources have been concerned that budgetary constraints would put back the order, leaving a huge gap in the workload at the yards.

On Friday BAE Systems announced it would be part of a consortium bidding for six fleet tankers for the UK Royal Fleet Auxiliary. The ships would be built in South Korea, but it is understood that contingency plans exist to relocate this work to the UK should the aircraft carrier order be delayed.

However, the manufacturing contracts for the aircraft carriers could be signed as early as this week, though some time next month is more likely, allowing steel to be cut later this year.

Defence Secretary Des Browne last week announced two contracts worth £50m at Rosyth which effectively [/b]signalled the Government's commitment to the carrier order.


My bold.
That does not sound at all like a firm order for ships.
To save having two threads on the same subject,here is a link to the other thread:

http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=89252#1793116

tangosix.
 
#3
Quote::
THE Ministry of Defence is expected to give the final go-ahead next month for construction work to begin on a £3.8bn aircraft carrier order.
The two carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, will be built in a joint venture involving BAE Systems, Babcock and VT group, and will provide work on the Clyde and at Rosyth and Portsmouth.

Industry sources have been concerned that budgetary constraints would put back the order, leaving a huge gap in the workload at the yards.

On Friday BAE Systems announced it would be part of a consortium bidding for six fleet tankers for the UK Royal Fleet Auxiliary. The ships would be built in South Korea, but it is understood that contingency plans exist to relocate this work to the UK should the aircraft carrier order be delayed.

However, the manufacturing contracts for the aircraft carriers could be signed as early as this week, though some time next month is more likely, allowing steel to be cut later this year.

Defence Secretary Des Browne last week announced two contracts worth £50m at Rosyth which effectively signalled the Government's commitment to the carrier order.
Good - the first will be here within 18 months of the order, as opposed to 5-6 years from a UK shipyard
 
#4
And why shouldn't they cancel it?. The way this country is going, effective naval strategy can be fulfilled by several pugnacious canoeists armed with catapults.
 
#5
Sven said:
Noticed this snippet of news, so much for the new carrier force and JSF getting the chop so Gordon can save money - they aren't even prostponing them.
Uh? Isn't this one of those stories that you would normally claim is unsourced "the MoD is expected" and "industry sources" etc etc, very very boring....... Yet again nothing really firm and no real timelines, are you also aware that GR7/9 now has an in service date until 2018? Doesn't sound like there is any rush to pay for and get a couple of fully functioning carrier air groups on the water to me, we could possibly have an aircraft carrier with some mud movers on it by.............. possibly when?
 
#7
The entire RN by the time they have built them wouldn't make up one carrier group.

Anyone noticed the lack of FAA pilots and aircraft engineers being trained?
 
#8
Yes, funny how our sven discredits anyone linking a story to an unconfirmed source, yet does exactly the same himself.
 
#9
Sven said:
Noticed this snippet of news, so much for the new carrier force and JSF getting the chop so Gordon can save money - they aren't even prostponing them.
The Scotsman
Can YOU provide a link please to the "snippet of news" that confirms the carrier and JSF order. It's certainly NOT in the link YOU offer.

All I see is more waffle on what they hope to do at some unconfirmed time in the future - which is no different to what HMG's been saying for several years!

No as regards "prostponing", it's a rather disingenous argument to try and defend HMG by saying that they are not postponing, when they've already postponed/delayed the order by several years. :x

And finally, if DESA is the best commercial manufacturer for the tankers, why isn't MoD buying direct? Why do we have to fritter away even more of our budget on Bloody Awful Systems to do absolutely nothing?
 
#10
No firm order yet for any ships..... To date I believe the only contracts signed are for a mere £50m and allow the Yards to 'adjust' the dry docks to take the ships if they are built and pay for a big crane.

What it does do is allow the Govt to say 'we are spending on defence' and in some respect keeps the public quiet..... Might even push the problem past the next election and onto the next Govt if they are a bit slow on the building work!

Even so, there's plenty of time for Brown and his lapdog Chancellor to do the maths and work out how much of the 4.5bn they can still save by ditching the whole idea (4.5bn - 50m).

With labours track record of honesty and 'prudent' (read incompetent) fiscal control over the last ten years not to mention their brilliant (not) support of things defence I'll only believe these things are really getting built when the order goes in for the launching party food and wine! Oh and they actually place an order for 'Dave' ... remember, a carrier with no aircraft is about as much use as Des Browne...

The first comment here makes some good points too.....
 
#11
well if the government cut 3 to 5 Billion out the over sized social budget (and I bet it could be done without much of an effect on the services provided) then each of the services could have a least an extra billion a year.

then there could be a decent size carrier group or two


Duncan
 
#12
Sven

I wonder if you actually believe what you say?

The RN is already being screwed by this Government, has already been cut to the bone and has capability gaps you could drive a supertanker through.

Where will the axe fall this time?
 
#13
Yokel,

I concur, having left the RN 11 months ago and keeping in contact with many of the lads and lasses. Everything I saw and am now hearing indicates the RN is on a knife edge at the moment. Combined with seemingly never ending reinvention of the wheel when it comes to branches and manning strategies. Honestly what sort of prat thinks this sea swap duel manning (2 ships 1 crew) is a good idea, it really makes me despair, hence I have gone over to the green side and become a stab instead of rnr. At the end of the day we live on an island, that is the be all and end all IMHO.

EWD
 

OldSnowy

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
#14
Reality check again. This from a recent Hansard:

Dr Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the (a) manning levels and (b) average tour intervals are for each manning pinch point in (i) the Army, (ii) the Navy and (iii) RAF. [162635]

Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Details of the manning levels for pinch point trades are provided in the following table. The figures are those reported for financial year 2007-08 Quarter 3 returns.

It is not possible to determine tour intervals for manning pinch point trades. Tour intervals apply to units which consist of personnel from a number of trades in the armed forces.

7 Feb 2008 : Column 1485W
Royal Navy Pinch Points Manning Leve l (Percentage)

RN Harrier GR7 Instructors 43

Lt GR7 Harrier Pilots 49

Merlin Observers 54

Merlin Pilots 61

Merlin Aircrew78


The reast are worth reading (such as an 80% shortfall in Army Radiologists!):
http://www.publications.parliament....207/text/80207w0042.htm#80207w0042.htm_spnew4

So there are the facts, I'm afraid. We are desperately short of Harrier Instructors, Merlin crew, etc. Who is going to train people so that the Harriers can continue in service on the new Carrier (and dont forget, even if there are 2 bought, the RN is not able, even if fully manned, to run both at once!).
 
#15
Currently, the RN doesn't even have enough pilots to man the air group on one of our existing mini-carriers. I believe the shortage of RN pilots is so acute that the air group commander on one of our current carriers is an RAF Group Captain.

The new carriers are designed to operate around 50 aircraft each. Dozens of new pilots and hundreds of new technicians will be required. It takes years to train these people. The fact that no effort is being made to recruit new air wing staff speaks volumes about the government's intentions.

There simply isn't enough money available to pay for all of the major defence projects that the government is 'committed' to. FRES for the army, Eurofighter and F35 for the RAF, T45 destroyers, astute class subs, F35 and the new carriers for the navy - something has to go.

Given that Afghanistan is land locked and Iraq is nearly land locked, which service do you think the axe is going to fall on?

Shares in BAE and Vosper fell significantly last month when City analysts finally accepted that the new carriers are not going to be built. If Sven knows something that they don't, there's a six figure salary waiting for him in the Square Mile.
 
#16
Ancient_Mariner said:
Currently, the RN doesn't even have enough pilots to man the air group on one of our existing mini-carriers. I believe the shortage of RN pilots is so acute that the air group commander on one of our current carriers is an RAF Group Captain.

The new carriers are designed to operate around 50 aircraft each. Dozens of new pilots and hundreds of new technicians will be required. It takes years to train these people. The fact that no effort is being made to recruit new air wing staff speaks volumes about the government's intentions.

There simply isn't enough money available to pay for all of the major defence projects that the government is 'committed' to. FRES for the army, Eurofighter and F35 for the RAF, T45 destroyers, astute class subs, F35 and the new carriers for the navy - something has to go.

Given that Afghanistan is land locked and Iraq is nearly land locked, which service do you think the axe is going to fall on?

Shares in BAE and Vosper fell significantly last month when City analysts finally accepted that the new carriers are not going to be built. If Sven knows something that they don't, there's a six figure salary waiting for him in the Square Mile.

That is absolutely true, something has to give.

The services have simply been living beyond their means for years, several crunch points have come and gone but instead of having some bollox and cancelling a major project or two have accepted salami slicing and cuts to things that wont make the news, training or spares for example.

The only things that have been ordered for the carriers is one or two long lead time things. There is NO ORDER for CVF, JCA or FRES and not likely to be.

This might be a fairly controversial thing to say but the UK spends on defence a sum second only to the USA. Forget percentages of GDP that is a totally irrelevant measure, its real pound notes that counts. What actually starves our services of the cash they desperately desperately need is a number of things

1.
Defence inflation bought about by the desire to support a strategic defence industry

2.
The desire to gold plate everything we buy, perfect being the enemy of good enough.

3.
A total lack of long term thinking on things like standardisation or maintaining production streams


I could go on but it is about time the MoD realised that there is no more money coming.

Its a criminal situation yes but surely there has to be some realism about major projects and the balance between them and the stuff that matters now.
 
#18
Recently been re-reading "Air War South Atlantic", (very good read btw), and it is surprising, (okay not really), how much capability we have lost, no way we could fight that war again.

Also the disappearence of the defence industry means we wouldn't be able to come up with some of the fixes that were rushed through learning from things as the battle went on.....

Odo
 
#19
Odo_de_StAmand said:
Recently been re-reading "Air War South Atlantic", (very good read btw), and it is surprising, (okay not really), how much capability we have lost, no way we could fight that war again.

Also the disappearence of the defence industry means we wouldn't be able to come up with some of the fixes that were rushed through learning from things as the battle went on.....

Odo
IIRC the fleet is now about half the size that it was in 1982. Defence spending is not a priority for this government and funding the navy is bottom of the priority list for MoD.

Let's face it. We can't even take on the Boghammar speedboats used by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. These things are fibreglass bathtubs with a .50 cal machine gun and a couple of jihadi nutters aboard.

WTF are we going to do if the Americans go into Iran? The Iranian navy has Kilo class submarines available. Most of our anti-submarine fleet is 'mothballed' with hatches sealed and all useful kit stripped out. Perhaps the torpedoing of a few British merchant ships in the Indian ocean will change Gordon's priorities.
 
#20
Odo[/quote]
WTF are we going to do if the Americans go into Iran? The Iranian navy has Kilo class submarines available. Most of our anti-submarine fleet is 'mothballed' with hatches sealed and all useful kit stripped out. Perhaps the torpedoing of a few British merchant ships in the Indian ocean will change Gordon's priorities.[/quote]

My bold,

Not very many of those left either! :x
 

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