Theyre cancelling the Carriers - OH NO THEYRE NOT

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by Sven, Feb 17, 2008.

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  1. Noticed this snippet of news, so much for the new carrier force and JSF getting the chop so Gordon can save money - they aren't even prostponing them.

    The Scotsman
  2. Hello Sven,

    My bold.
    That does not sound at all like a firm order for ships.
    To save having two threads on the same subject,here is a link to the other thread:

  3. Good - the first will be here within 18 months of the order, as opposed to 5-6 years from a UK shipyard
  4. And why shouldn't they cancel it?. The way this country is going, effective naval strategy can be fulfilled by several pugnacious canoeists armed with catapults.
  5. Uh? Isn't this one of those stories that you would normally claim is unsourced "the MoD is expected" and "industry sources" etc etc, very very boring....... Yet again nothing really firm and no real timelines, are you also aware that GR7/9 now has an in service date until 2018? Doesn't sound like there is any rush to pay for and get a couple of fully functioning carrier air groups on the water to me, we could possibly have an aircraft carrier with some mud movers on it by.............. possibly when?
  6. Carrier groups? Your mistaken we may have 2 nice shiney carriers but carrier groups? I doubt it.
  7. The entire RN by the time they have built them wouldn't make up one carrier group.

    Anyone noticed the lack of FAA pilots and aircraft engineers being trained?
  8. Yes, funny how our sven discredits anyone linking a story to an unconfirmed source, yet does exactly the same himself.
  9. Can YOU provide a link please to the "snippet of news" that confirms the carrier and JSF order. It's certainly NOT in the link YOU offer.

    All I see is more waffle on what they hope to do at some unconfirmed time in the future - which is no different to what HMG's been saying for several years!

    No as regards "prostponing", it's a rather disingenous argument to try and defend HMG by saying that they are not postponing, when they've already postponed/delayed the order by several years. :x

    And finally, if DESA is the best commercial manufacturer for the tankers, why isn't MoD buying direct? Why do we have to fritter away even more of our budget on Bloody Awful Systems to do absolutely nothing?
  10. No firm order yet for any ships..... To date I believe the only contracts signed are for a mere £50m and allow the Yards to 'adjust' the dry docks to take the ships if they are built and pay for a big crane.

    What it does do is allow the Govt to say 'we are spending on defence' and in some respect keeps the public quiet..... Might even push the problem past the next election and onto the next Govt if they are a bit slow on the building work!

    Even so, there's plenty of time for Brown and his lapdog Chancellor to do the maths and work out how much of the 4.5bn they can still save by ditching the whole idea (4.5bn - 50m).

    With labours track record of honesty and 'prudent' (read incompetent) fiscal control over the last ten years not to mention their brilliant (not) support of things defence I'll only believe these things are really getting built when the order goes in for the launching party food and wine! Oh and they actually place an order for 'Dave' ... remember, a carrier with no aircraft is about as much use as Des Browne...

    The first comment here makes some good points too.....
  11. well if the government cut 3 to 5 Billion out the over sized social budget (and I bet it could be done without much of an effect on the services provided) then each of the services could have a least an extra billion a year.

    then there could be a decent size carrier group or two

  12. Sven

    I wonder if you actually believe what you say?

    The RN is already being screwed by this Government, has already been cut to the bone and has capability gaps you could drive a supertanker through.

    Where will the axe fall this time?
  13. Yokel,

    I concur, having left the RN 11 months ago and keeping in contact with many of the lads and lasses. Everything I saw and am now hearing indicates the RN is on a knife edge at the moment. Combined with seemingly never ending reinvention of the wheel when it comes to branches and manning strategies. Honestly what sort of prat thinks this sea swap duel manning (2 ships 1 crew) is a good idea, it really makes me despair, hence I have gone over to the green side and become a stab instead of rnr. At the end of the day we live on an island, that is the be all and end all IMHO.

  14. OldSnowy

    OldSnowy LE Moderator Book Reviewer

    Reality check again. This from a recent Hansard:

    Dr Fox: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what the (a) manning levels and (b) average tour intervals are for each manning pinch point in (i) the Army, (ii) the Navy and (iii) RAF. [162635]

    Mr. Bob Ainsworth: Details of the manning levels for pinch point trades are provided in the following table. The figures are those reported for financial year 2007-08 Quarter 3 returns.

    It is not possible to determine tour intervals for manning pinch point trades. Tour intervals apply to units which consist of personnel from a number of trades in the armed forces.

    7 Feb 2008 : Column 1485W
    Royal Navy Pinch Points Manning Leve l (Percentage)

    RN Harrier GR7 Instructors 43

    Lt GR7 Harrier Pilots 49

    Merlin Observers 54

    Merlin Pilots 61

    Merlin Aircrew78

    The reast are worth reading (such as an 80% shortfall in Army Radiologists!):

    So there are the facts, I'm afraid. We are desperately short of Harrier Instructors, Merlin crew, etc. Who is going to train people so that the Harriers can continue in service on the new Carrier (and dont forget, even if there are 2 bought, the RN is not able, even if fully manned, to run both at once!).
  15. Currently, the RN doesn't even have enough pilots to man the air group on one of our existing mini-carriers. I believe the shortage of RN pilots is so acute that the air group commander on one of our current carriers is an RAF Group Captain.

    The new carriers are designed to operate around 50 aircraft each. Dozens of new pilots and hundreds of new technicians will be required. It takes years to train these people. The fact that no effort is being made to recruit new air wing staff speaks volumes about the government's intentions.

    There simply isn't enough money available to pay for all of the major defence projects that the government is 'committed' to. FRES for the army, Eurofighter and F35 for the RAF, T45 destroyers, astute class subs, F35 and the new carriers for the navy - something has to go.

    Given that Afghanistan is land locked and Iraq is nearly land locked, which service do you think the axe is going to fall on?

    Shares in BAE and Vosper fell significantly last month when City analysts finally accepted that the new carriers are not going to be built. If Sven knows something that they don't, there's a six figure salary waiting for him in the Square Mile.