THEM - still world leaders?

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by ExplosiveKiwi, Jun 26, 2011.

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  1. Reading around on ARRSE a lot, there seems to be a relatively low viewpoint on THEM these days and I'm just wondering whether this is jealousy (guys who've failed selection) or whether there's valid reason to it. On top of this, there's those leaked comments by the yanks which say that American SF regard the Aussies & Kiwis as the best and the Brits as unprofessional, lazy forces.

    Considering OPSEC is still high, probably at an all-time high, who's making these 'observations' and dishing them out? I've seen a lot about how SF typically haven't been able to do their usual job in Afghanistan because they need to work in teams of 8 or more, a lot of ops that would have been SF-level 10 years ago are now Para/Bootie work, and that 'no front line' means infantry recce platoons are seeing the same stuff as SF recce ops, but the same question stands - with OPSEC so high, why are other soldiers saying this and why are the yanks discussing how UKSF has gone down the drain?

    Not a journo, just a pretty-pissed-off Brit who has always believed that the UK sat on the best SF in the world and wonders why they're now regarded as 'not as good as...(insert US or Oceanic SF here)'.

  2. I would love to see any evidence you have to back your assertions.

    Which yanks are saying that SAS/SRR/SBS has gone down the drain?

    What is the basis of comparison between SAS and SASR and SAS Coy.

    I know that SASR have done very well on ops (two VCs) but think that this is quite a superficial analysis.
  3. I thought the one bit of the British military the Americans were loving and had been for the last ten years was the SAS/SBS who have been doing a lot of work with them in both Iraq and Afghanistan?
  4. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    we did but they lost the plot a bit so they arent as instantly adaptable as we would like. it started in some of the NATO lrrp competitions back in the 80s where the TA them were coming in better at pure military skills because that was all they did. in rotating to the CT role they lose a bit of their edge.

    plus we trained the rest of the world so its not surprising that they improve on it. the yanks throw more money at SF but we are much better at improv. mind you their intake is generally younger, fitter and more intelligent plus having more of them means they can afford a slower rotation so less of a burn out rate. the lack of 'patriotism' hasnt helped as more of them go off to write boots and make their fortune in the world of cp or pmc's. thats down to the **** way we treat our forces in general though.
    aussie and kiwi them train more with US gear and cover a more military role so it could be said they are better, one reason why so many TA them were called up for Afghanistan was their patrolling skills. they also select differently and dont bin cadre for stupid reasons or on a first come fiorst served basis like we do, if they look like they will fit then they work them into the role rather than rtu them for blisters.
  5. Stanley A. McChrystal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This chap held UKSF in high regard during the Task Force Knight / Black days. As someone that has lived and worked with ex- USSF personnel I know they still hold ours in high regard.

    If UKSF lacks anything I'd say it's assets. We lost more blades to helicopter crashes than enemy fire in Iraq.

    If anyone thinks UKSF is a spent force they should **** off to Afghanistan and pick up a PKM and see just how poorly they handle themselves.
    • Like Like x 2
  6. "Mind you their intake is generally younger, 'fitter' and more intelligent." --- Grumblegrunt

    WTF? Most of the SPAMS failed the BFT to even get on a NATO ILLRP's cse if memory serves.
  7. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    no one said they were spent just losing the edge a bit which isnt their fault but trying to punch above their weight in numbers, all the repeat ops dont suit everyone and they were better at small spurts of action or low intensity where they could engineer novel effective solutions, perfect them then pass them on to the world

    its no secret that new labour broke them with overstretch which is ruining the training cycles, which is why we have the SRR now and other units made up to take the strain on the pure military level like ctr leaving them as the strike element. the worry is they will reduce them to just killers on command instead of the intelligent gutsy multi role force they were formed as.

    reduction in army numbers has meant a smaller pool of 'special soldiers' from the regular inf battalions which was the main reason for the SRR being formed as skills were dying out across the board. everyone started to rely on tech but its hard to remote bug a cave in the middle of nowhere.
  8. I am beginning to suspect that the recently much expanded SB, might be a bit more 'rounded' in that regard.
  9. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    a lot of the recruits are college grads and go from general basic straight to airborne school and beyond. physically they have less issues than the UK equivalent due to the state of the US medical services, better diet and school sports programs, so you had less bum knees strapped up just to pass selection, there is however a strange mismatch in the US forces and what they class as special. I didnt like the bft but could walk all day with a bergan when the runners had died 15 miles back down the trail whic is the difference between brit and US forces, they travel lighter so often cant deal with going beyond the pain/bugger it barrier. my favourite is the legion school in guyana where the assault course is in a swamp, the legion have to do it in 2 hours or under (or something like that) USMC took 18+.

    weingarten didnt really prove anything as the aim wasnt to run into battle but the brass likes to think that a faster soldier is a better one for some daft reason. the thing that set them apart though was the average age being that much higher than the regular soldier, now they all want to pass selection at 21 and have their first novel done by the time they are 25. you see the difference in regular infantry units when that is the case. two units I was attached to were 1PWO and the Green Howards, PWO av age 19 GH 27 which gave a totally different mindset and tempo to operations and drinking.

    back in the 80's though the average yank wasnt very good at anything really, cept morning pt and going hoooah a lot. give them an slr and some 58 webbing and they were knackered :)
  10. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    do you mean the much rumoured ultra black Special Pie Squadron there? fat guys in beige headgear!
    • Like Like x 1
  11. No that's HQ Sqn, various 'bar commando's' and other camp followers. I was referring to our green lidded' 'shaky' friends. :)
  12. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    ah the poole canoe club - they are probably better soldiers, again because they do more actual fieldwork and even the CT stuff is still attacking shit or blowing it up. coming from the regular brigades though they do have a better source of raw materials and are generally taller, better looking and can spell better than the paratroopers who appear to have taken over them by recent accounts.

    I gather it was more soggy biscuit squadron than them storming tora bora and doing the deep patrolling alongside TA them.

    case in point is the new article about them doing security and CT for the olympics, the yanks have team 6 and delta, the local sheriffs/PDs have swat, eru, trts etc... but the main element which we are missing to the detriment of a military them is an FBI style HRT provision within the national police force/special branch/security services as shown in the pitifull handling of the raul moat thing and the menenez shooting where they patched together too many varied elements and lacked a trained cohesion.
  13. and not to be confused with the 'Poole Harbour Canoe Club' who actually know how to paddle.
  14. Grumblegrunt

    Grumblegrunt LE Book Reviewer

    not the soggy bottom sailors then