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The yanks are kidding right?

#1
From the BBC. Full story here http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3655540.stm
US 'concern' over Putin measures

The US State Department has expressed concern about political changes proposed by Russian President Vladimir Putin following the Beslan tragedy.
Secretary of State Colin Powell said Mr Putin was in effect pulling back from democratic reforms and said he wanted to discuss the measures with Moscow.
On Monday Mr Putin called for stronger central control of the regions and an overhaul of security services.
Russia has also pledged an extra $5bn to its security services.
Finance Minister Alexei Kudrin, who announced the move on Tuesday, said the fight against terror would be a top budget priority in 2005.
Two-thirds of the money will go to the Ministry of Defence.
'Move to the rear'
Mr Powell told Reuters news agency that Moscow should balance the need to go after terrorists with a commitment to the democratic process.
"It would be not the best course of action to move in a direction which [would] be seen by the international community as moving toward the rear with respect to democratic reforms," he said.
State Department spokesman Richard Boucher also urged Russia to "strike the right balance", while expressing Washington's solidarity with Moscow in the fight against terrorism.
Mr Putin's announcement on Monday of a series of radical and far-reaching reforms included plans to change the way Russia's lower house of parliament, the Duma, is elected and nominate rather than elect regional governors.
Mr Putin also repeated that Russia had a right to take pre-emptive action to "destroy criminals in their hideouts and, if necessary, abroad".
The BBC's Peter Biles, in Moscow, says new measures will almost certainly strengthen Mr Putin's own position, and further limit the power of an already weakened opposition.
The yanks are kidding right? I mean they can hardly whine that the Russians are doing something non democratic when they have invaded two independent nations and they have people locked up in Gitmo with no recourse to the law.

Hello pot this is kettle send colour check over. :roll:
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#2
Sorry, maybe you missed the underlying story, Putin is proposing to replace MP's with his party officials, this isn't some kind of joke, this is big shite. This is even worse than stealing all the shares of a major oil company and giving them to your KGB mates.

There is ONLY ONE EXAMPLE of a political figure replacing piece by piece an electoral system and free press - it happened in the 1930's in Germany.

If Churchill was alive today he would be screaming from the gin cabinet, rebuild the armed forces, recruit the men, attack immediately. There is almost no comparable situation to what Putin is doing and the entire West is praying that he doesn't divert all his oil dollars into tanks and drive westwards. WW3 could still happen, thanks to this thief.
 
#3
Ord_Sgt said:
The yanks are kidding right? I mean they can hardly whine that the Russians are doing something non democratic when they have invaded two independent nations and they have people locked up in Gitmo with no recourse to the law.

Hello pot this is kettle send colour check over. :roll:
Ord,
1) AfgahaniLand was a UN sanctioned "invasion"
2) Iraq was in violation of a UN sanctioned "cease fire". As a UN member the US saw fit to impose that cease fire agreement, since the UN decided it did not have the spine to do so 8O
3) far less people locked up in Gitmo, then are being slaughtered in the Sudan...with which the UN does not want to deal with 8O
4) and what Mr Happy said. :D
 
#4
ctauch said:
Ord,
1) AfgahaniLand was a UN sanctioned "invasion"
Fair enough.
ctauch said:
2) Iraq was in violation of a UN sanctioned "cease fire". As a UN member the US saw fit to impose that cease fire agreement, since the UN decided it did not have the spine to do so 8O
I thought it was because "he definately has WMD and can launch in 45 minutes". Silly me :wink: Dress it up however you like it was because saddam tried to kill dubyas daddy and the family was still pissed at him.
ctauch said:
3) far less people locked up in Gitmo, then are being slaughtered in the Sudan...with which the UN does not want to deal with 8O
It is still not right. Never ever in a democracy.
ctauch said:
4) and what Mr Happy said. :D
OK but WW3, come on CIS coudn't fight it's way out of a paper bag in the foreseable future.

Hope that didn't come across as too much of an anti US rant ctauch? :)
 
#6
The state of the Russian forces at present is laughable but with the proposals that Putin wants to implement........well we may be looking at another Stalin......albeit dressed as a Democracy. If this injection of cash occurs then we may see a resurected Russian Army which may rival what they had under the Communist regime.

Lets hope it doesn't get to that :?
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#7
dui-lai said:
The state of the Russian forces at present is laughable but with the proposals that Putin wants to implement........
I posted this elsewhere but here it is again... I was in Russia a few weeks ago and saw lots of Russians training and despite everything we are told they looked motivated and efficient and their AFVs were def. not VOR. They were all well fed and clothed and certainly not unlike anything I would see on a visit to Aldershot. And they still all have the AK...

Sure their C&C seems poor but I suspect they could roll through most of Central Europe in a week to save it from Enron or some such should Putin choose to.

The Bear is not dead. And it has a wonderful training area in Chechnya like we had in Ulster.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#8
It seems to me not impossible that - under the right conditions - Russia could soon become as frightening a prospect as the old Soviet Union. If you combine Putin's undeniable fascist authoritarian nastiness with the increased efficiency of a liberalised and profit-motivated economy, and the Russian peoples' undoubted preference for aggressive and nationalist governments, it makes a fairly frothy cocktail. There is no need for them to waste money any more fighting an ideological struggle with the US and the west, so why not invest that 'peace dividend' in re-establishing their hegemony in eastern Europe and Central Asia.

Meanwhile, we slash defence spending.
 
#9
How likely are China and Russia to become diplomatically close or on good terms with each-other?

The two allied would be a bit of a worry.

We still need our armed forces, that much is for sure. Why cut it?


C
 
#10
So the Russians are starving, penniless and their military is gutted?
Bit like the German Army back in the late twenties then?
 
#11
BB and chickenpunk make some astute observations:

Facism is simply socialism with a mix of capitalism but no democracy, i know that sounds weird, but it was and is a weird philosophy. Ignore the anti-Jewish thing (no i am not belittling it), as that was simply good ole german prejudice dressed up. There was little of that in Italy and Spain.

Facism is based upon the ideal of a centralise economy that is not hampered by nicities of social democracy - therefore, companies are allowed to make huge profits, as long as it is shared with the central government who then implements massive infrastructure projects. The socialist concept of equality for all is replaced with one of levels of society and everyone knowing there place. Sound familiar!!

Facism also means ultra nationalism and loathing of all things foreign (unless there are other facist), little or no democracy and a government who knows better than the public, what is good for it. Sounding even more familiar!!!!

Russia looks to be heading for this quite quickly. Oh, interesting point, after the first few years of the "Project" the German embassy was describing B*Liar's Third Way as reminiscent of Hitler's early government. 8O
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#12
Civilian_In_Green said:
How likely are China and Russia to become diplomatically close or on good terms with each-other?
CIG, the China question is certainly an interesting point, on the one hand it has much in common with Russia in that it wants wealth etc, on the other it would dearly like to get its hands on the oil, gold, diamonds in Siberia so much so that it might have yet another bargy with Russia (I think the last tit for tat involved a couple of divisions crossing the border in the 60's). Tom Clancy war-gamed it fairly well in The Bear and the Dragon.
 
E

error_unknown

Guest
#13
Plastic Yank said:
Russia looks to be heading for this quite quickly. Oh, interesting point, after the first few years of the "Project" the German embassy was describing B*Liar's Third Way as reminiscent of Hitler's early government. 8O
I've always thought that Tony Blair is the closest thing to a Fascist leader that this country has produced. Take into account the following factors:


  • 1. His pronounced and obvious distaste for the parliamentary process (exemplified by the New Labour habit of announcing policy initiatives in the press rather than Parliament).

    2. His absolute disinclination to protect the rights of minorities (eg, the hunting ban).

    3. Contempt for the truth in furtherance of his own agenda (many, many examples both personally and politically but, for example, the 'dodgy dossier' and WMD in Iraq).

    4. Willingness to change the Constitution for partisan political advantage (eg, expulsion of hereditary peers from House of Lords without a general reform of the chamber; attempt to abolish the judicial functions of the House of Lords with no clear alternative; devolution).

    5. Cronyism (see point 4 above, but also his elevation of personal friends to the peerage and then ministerial rank or function, eg, 'Lord' Falconer, 'Baroness' Scotland, 'Lord' Levy etc)

    6. Politicisation of the Civil Service (eg, massive expansion of the numbers and influence of 'Special Advisors'; appointment of political hacks to the Government Information Service - Alistair Campbell et al)

The list could go on and on, but what we have experienced since New Labour came to power has been a 'Gleichschaltung' similar to that of the Nazis in Germany after 1933. Unfortunately, all of this has been aided by the pathetic specimens who constitute the opposition: neither the Tories nor the Lib Dems could punch their way out of a paper bag, whilst most of the minor parties are essentially silly. All very depressing really. :(
 
#14
I find this all fascinating...everybody has made some well informed statements...Do we REALLY think that Britain could turn into Nazi Germany....well if the BNP continue to gain support and the current attitude towards race, assylum seekers etc....then maybe we could well be on our way....Bring back the Empire and we will have no more problems......all the little countries that were in the empire which we aquired with the cunning use of a flag wanted their independance and now they want our benifits....funny turn around that ....why are we so weak...or are we strong!!! :?
 
#15
Plastic Yank said:
Facism is based upon the ideal of a centralise economy that is not hampered by nicities of social democracy - therefore, companies are allowed to make huge profits, as long as it is shared with the central government who then implements massive infrastructure projects.
Sounds great...where do I sign?... :)
 
#16
come on CIS coudn't fight it's way out of a paper bag in the foreseable future.
But neither can we - compare what we can actually bring to the party right now to what we used to have standing around during the Cold War. Or do we abandon Iraq, give everyone two weeks refresher training and get back into the heavy armour game ? (Without the heavy armour of course, bit more lead time required for that)

And of course now that force densities are so much lower than during the Cold War Soviet-style manoeuvre warfare is far easier to pull off. All the Russians really need to raise their game considerably is a good cause to inspire the average conscript. Urrah Comrades, Forward for the Rodina ! - and all that.
 
#17
[quote="Mr Happy(I think the last tit for tat involved a couple of divisions crossing the border in the 60's). Tom Clancy war-gamed it fairly well in The Bear and the Dragon.[/quote]

It turned into a hot little war around the Ussuri River for a week or two, including the use of chemical weapons. Total casualties reputed to run into the low thousands. There were unconfirmed reports that it petered out because Moscow threatened to go nuclear and the Chinese couldn't match that at the time.

They still glare at each other across that frontier. Russia's been paranoid about invasion by the Yellow Peril since the days of Genghis Khan and the Golden Horde. They've always been more likely to fight each other than team up against someone else.
 
#18
Ord_Sgt said:
ctauch said:
Ord,
1) AfgahaniLand was a UN sanctioned "invasion"
Fair enough.
ctauch said:
2) Iraq was in violation of a UN sanctioned "cease fire". As a UN member the US saw fit to impose that cease fire agreement, since the UN decided it did not have the spine to do so 8O
I thought it was because "he definately has WMD and can launch in 45 minutes". Silly me :wink: Dress it up however you like it was because saddam tried to kill dubyas daddy and the family was still pissed at him.
That was only part of it. At the time it did look like a very real issue. Saddam made little effort to prove otherwise.

Michael Moore your hero?




Ord_Sgt said:
ctauch said:
3) far less people locked up in Gitmo, then are being slaughtered in the Sudan...with which the UN does not want to deal with 8O
It is still not right. Never ever in a democracy.
Maybe you have a spare room for the nice people then?
 
#19
you don`t have say seig heil tony to be living in a fasist dictatorship,it`s not the big changes that will catch us out but the constant drip drip in the back ground eroding the controls that protect us.
 
#20
RCSignals said:
That was only part of it. At the time it did look like a very real issue. Saddam made little effort to prove otherwise.

Michael Moore your hero?
Bollocks that mans a cnut. Besides I believed, like most he probably did have some hidden away, but I didn't have the CIA/MI6 etc checking for me so I can be excused for getting it wrong.




Ord_Sgt said:
ctauch said:
3) far less people locked up in Gitmo, then are being slaughtered in the Sudan...with which the UN does not want to deal with 8O
It is still not right. Never ever in a democracy.
Maybe you have a spare room for the nice people then?[/quote]

Who says who is the nice person? You? Me? Thats how tha Stazi worked wasn't it.
 

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