The Vietnam War - 2017

DaManBugs

On ROPS
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You are correct. Cannon fodder.
Hey! Nice to see you back on ARRSE, jumpinjarhead! But, tell me. did no-one actually question the system in all those years? Did no-one actually ask: "Just what are we doing/hoping to achieve in Vietnam?"

I really can't imagine that all those thousands of intelligent fellas just upped and left without questioning what was the objective.

MsG
 
And while all that was happening, you were advancing to General, right? Didn't you also beat your man McChrystal at push-ups?

MsG
Are you sampling your heroin you used to sell children again? or just PTSD to your da ******* you again?
 
Hey! Nice to see you back on ARRSE, jumpinjarhead! But, tell me. did no-one actually question the system in all those years? Did no-one actually ask: "Just what are we doing/hoping to achieve in Vietnam?"

I really can't imagine that all those thousands of intelligent fellas just upped and left without questioning what was the objective.

MsG
There was a great deal of protesting and some dodged the draft or deserted and went to Canada but most obeyed and went as ordered.

There were a few tragic cases of small units being overrun or badly mauled due to incompetence of small unit leaders but generally things had a way of sorting themselves out in terms of culling the incompetents or psychopaths.

It was NOT as depicted in Full Metal Jacket, Platoon or Apocalypse Now which would have you believe the rule was incompetence and psychotic lawlessness whereas it was the very rare exception.
 
Hey! Nice to see you back on ARRSE, jumpinjarhead! But, tell me. did no-one actually question the system in all those years? Did no-one actually ask: "Just what are we doing/hoping to achieve in Vietnam?"

I really can't imagine that all those thousands of intelligent fellas just upped and left without questioning what was the objective.

MsG
You mean like asking why if my family was murdered by the British Army (TWICE mind you) I served in the same Army?

That kind of questioning?
 

DaManBugs

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You mean like asking why if my family was murdered by the British Army (TWICE mind you) I served in the same Army?

That kind of questioning?
Stop derailing the thread just to get in your stupid, infantile remarks, Cold_Ricker! Fairy nuff, you've decided you don't like me. Congratulations! No-one's even remotely interested in your personal vendetta, gobshite. Least of all me. So just leave it out, OK?

MsG
 
Stop derailing the thread just to get in your stupid, infantile remarks, Cold_Ricker! Fairy nuff, you've decided you don't like me. Congratulations! No-one's even remotely interested in your personal vendetta, gobshite. Least of all me. So just leave it out, OK?

MsG
LOL the King of derailment for personal aggrandizement whines about me. Look to your post about push ups, you festering turd of humanity.

Eat a shotgun


Now back on thread
 

DaManBugs

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What I've always missed in any filum or documentary about the Vietnam War is that it was kicked off, controlled and sustained by the CIA.

The author L. Fletcher Prouty describes in great detail how that came about in his excellent book: "The Secret Team - The CIA and Its Allies in Control of the United States and the World". It's a real eye-opener for those who still believe that the US Army, Marines or Air Force were the ones in charge.

MsG
Might be an excellent book but that doesn't mean it's accurate. I havn't read it but I've read Proutys JFK assassination book. The stuff of conspiracy theorists which leaves him with no credibility in my eyes.
 
The thing that surprised me was the part about the North Vietnam higher echlon's sending their children to Europe and China for a better education than have them sent to the Front. Same thing as the Septics did i do believe (POTUS did it rather than serve). Looks like it was the Poor guys on both sides getting shafted by their leaders again. Come the revolution Brothers and Sisters
 
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DaManBugs

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Might be an excellent book but that doesn't mean it's accurate. I havn't read it but I've read Proutys JFK assassination book. The stuff of conspiracy theorists which leaves him with no credibility in my eyes.
I agree about the JFK book. I thought it was a bit speculative when I read it too, although, I suppose it could've happened that way. Who knows?. However, why I find "Secret Team" so credible is because an awful lot of what Prouty wrote about is also contained (but with far less "insider" detail) in Tim Weiner's book: "A Legacy of Ashes: The History of the CIA".

There's another book that I read yonks ago called: "The Firm" (I can't mind the name of the author). It's actually written as a novel, but also goes into great detail about various shenanigans in Berlin, Vietnam, Moscow and other places that sort of rang true when I read it and I found they were also featured in the abovementioned books.

MsG

PS. Another book that confirms the CIA's complete control of the Vietnam War is Nick Turse's: "Kill Anything That Moves".
 
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It was NOT as depicted in Full Metal Jacket, Platoon or Apocalypse Now which would have you believe the rule was incompetence and psychotic lawlessness whereas it was the very rare exception.
I just watched the fifth episode and it talked about 'Tiger Force'. Would they have been authorised at a political level or a military level? The aftermath of that was to bury the evidence, but whilst it was going on, they were getting some fairly dodgy orders. Would Officers and NCOs not have stood up to the unlawful nature of them , was it a case of so many americans were dying that anything went? Was it the indoctrination...... What went wrong?

Good to see you back by the way. Have fun?
 
I just watched the fifth episode and it talked about 'Tiger Force'. Would they have been authorised at a political level or a military level? The aftermath of that was to bury the evidence, but whilst it was going on, they were getting some fairly dodgy orders. Would Officers and NCOs not have stood up to the unlawful nature of them , was it a case of so many americans were dying that anything went? Was it the indoctrination...... What went wrong?

Good to see you back by the way. Have fun?
Tiger Force was a classic example of a long range Reconnaisance unit that went off the rails when out on its own for too long. That was a failure of command and control.
(Values and standards type thinking was in its infancy. "Hearts and minds" had lip service paid to it).

The flip side was the Phoenix programme run by the CIA. This was an out and out State sponsored assassination project.

The problem with the leadership of US forces was, I think, largely rooted in the tour system.

Individual replacements were fed forward into units they had not pre trained with.
They were pretty much useless for some months, then they got settled, but then they got "short" and became more and more reluctant.
Then when they went back (alone) they ran into the protest culture.
The culture shock and lack of mutual support seems to have been very damaging.

Officers did short tours, or got robbed for staff roles, and tended to be gone just as they were becoming useful.

There was a lot of painful relearning of old errors each time.
 
A previous American poster on here, @jumpinjarhead, used to sound off about Calley.
He thought he was an absolute disgrace of an officer.
A previous American poster on here, @jumpinjarhead, used to sound off about Calley.
He thought he was an absolute disgrace of an officer.
He was a product of the system, his spectacular failure as a leader fall to the feet of a system that should have weeded him out at some point. But the US was seriously short of junior officers and good NCOs.
 
There was a great deal of protesting and some dodged the draft or deserted and went to Canada but most obeyed and went as ordered.
An acquaintance realised he was better off not being a grunt, and volunteered for Special Forces, as he knew that the better trained he was, the more chance he had of surviving.
He said a lot of his colleagues thought the same way.
He ended up doing two tours.
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
It seems to me that at that time and place, it was all about quantity, not quality, as the Officer candidate schools kept pumping out bodies.
They also set up NCO schools and pumped out instant NCOs.
Known as shake n bake NCOs if I recall.
The US Army's Officer Candidate School had been in operation from just before America's entry into WW2, and had a proven track record of producing quality small unit leaders from men who had entered the service as Enlisted Men. The expansion of the program during the Viet Nam era however diluted the quality and men like Rusty Calley, who likely would have made a competent and able enough enlisted soldier, but was wholly unsuited for a commission in the Infantry.

There is little doubt that his selection for, and commissioning from, OCS was a result of a desperate need for numbers due to the war. The same impulse (Viet Nam had gutted the Army of its experienced NCO by the late 1960s) resulted in an NCO version of OCS (the so-called 'shake & bakes' or "Whip-n-Chills"). The Non-commissioned Officer Candidate Course ran from 1967-1971 and was surprisingly something of a success, although it did produce a few duds along the way too.

There is a short but quite good paper on the subject of NCOCC, which among other things chronicles the reaction of some SNCO types regarding the new breed:
Many feared it would affect their promotion opportunities, and one senior NCO worried that "nobody had shown them [NCOCC graduates] how to keep floor buffers operational in garrison."
NCOCC Paper

And another, slightly more comprehensive one.
 
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But as a war it generated the original walts too. See the book 'Stolen Valor' about the building of the Vietnam Memorial etc...
You posted before that you worked with/for Jan Scruggs.
the name rang a bell - there's a lot about the memorial in a book called The Long Gray Line, which is about the class of 66 at USMA, and their subsequent careers.
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
An acquaintance realised he was better off not being a grunt, and volunteered for Special Forces, as he knew that the better trained he was, the more chance he had of surviving.
He said a lot of his colleagues thought the same way.
He ended up doing two tours.
Interestingly enough, this seemed to be the motivation behind a significant number of candidates who volunteered for the NCO Candidate Course (see post on shake & bakes above). They reasoned that the extra months of good training up front would serve them well in keeping themselves alive. Indeed there many who argued at the time that a draftee Infantryman's two-year hitch would have been better planned by having him train more comprehensively for up to 9 months pre-tour.
 
Tiger Force was a classic example of a long range Reconnaisance unit that went off the rails when out on its own for too long. That was a failure of command and control.
(Values and standards type thinking was in its infancy. "Hearts and minds" had lip service paid to it).

The flip side was the Phoenix programme run by the CIA. This was an out and out State sponsored assassination project.

The problem with the leadership of US forces was, I think, largely rooted in the tour system.

Individual replacements were fed forward into units they had not pre trained with.
They were pretty much useless for some months, then they got settled, but then they got "short" and became more and more reluctant.
Then when they went back (alone) they ran into the protest culture.
The culture shock and lack of mutual support seems to have been very damaging.

Officers did short tours, or got robbed for staff roles, and tended to be gone just as they were becoming useful.

There was a lot of painful relearning of old errors each time.
That kind of explains it at small unit level, although, platoon Sergeants would have had the experience to put the young officer in his place, and the men could of just said "you want me to kill who? Women and Children?"

Did the 'orders' come from the Army or (most likely becasuse they are underhanded usually) the CIA?

On the face of it, it seems largely a war against communism, which america is or maybe was massively against for some reason, and the people suffering were the young men out there, not forgetting those at home by extension.
 
For all the talk of lack of training and bad leadership, there must have been some good guys.
In the 10 years of the USA in Vietnam, surely some improvements were made to training?
Did any veterans from previous tours go back and train the next batch of infantry?
Were any reports on performance and kit ever written and acted upon?
 

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