The Vietnam War - 2017

There was all that, but also the sheer financial cost of the Bay of Pigs debacle for the US. First off, the $53 million they had to pay to buy the freedom of the captured prisoners in Cuba, but also that the CIA left behind loads of military kit, including a half-dozen B24 bombers fitted with state-of-the-art equipment, and huge mountains of arms and ammo at the former training base in Nicaragua. Once the surrounding countries rumbled that, they insisted that they also wanted something similar to "maintain the status quo", as it were. The US had no choice but to comply and that cost them another coupla hundred million. No wonder they were pissed off.

MsG

More accurately B-26's
 
Unfortunately I can't source the information on Calley's status, it's something remembered from a book on the massacre written in the 70's that I read in the same time period. I did notice in his bio in Wiki that there's about 3 years between when he failed out of college and when he entered military service. I brought him up really to show the extent the US went to in order to cast a wider net.

The biggest complaints about the college deferments is that it favored the economically better off who could afford 4 years of Basket Weaving with post grad work in looming to keep that deferment until they were too old to draft while the more economically challenged had little choice. The National Guard option was a crap shoot as there was always a possibility they would activate the unit and send them over. Guard units during the crunch years of the draft were at maximum numbers or close to it. that's where the controversy with Bush Jr. comes in. It's been rumored that he got his slot in a filled unit through influence or the family outright paying for the slot.
A previous American poster on here, @jumpinjarhead, used to sound off about Calley.
He thought he was an absolute disgrace of an officer.
 
Reagan was a pussycat next to Mike Pence.
There is a really scary dude.

the Nation of Islam, a "straight edge" resistance movement that deliberately set itself apart from Christianity, because it was too "white".
I had NO idea who Mike Pence is. I had no reason to. american politics is something that I have never once been directly interested in. Why would I? Anyhoo, I have spent a lot of this afternoon reading about him.

One word.

Shit

He is absolutely mental. I don't think I can add to that. Anti abotion, anti anything other than hetro relationships, all for concealed carrying of firearms. Is he a bad guy from a Sergio Leone film or what!

As for the nation of Islam, you only have to watch Malcom X, specifically the part where Malcom goes to the police station to get the guy that they are holding, and the policeman looks out of the window and they all turn and face him as one...... That right there is 'whiteys' problem with Islam. The fact that Muslims are motivated, organised and focused, not like christians who think that someone else will solve their problems for them. Much as I would love to discuss the Black Panthers and Baader Meinhoff, I can hear people already either getting really really bored or really really het up and twitchy, so we will have to leave that one!
 
I had NO idea who Mike Pence is. I had no reason to. american politics is something that I have never once been directly interested in. Why would I? Anyhoo, I have spent a lot of this afternoon reading about him.

One word.

Shit

He is absolutely mental. I don't think I can add to that. Anti abotion, anti anything other than hetro relationships, all for concealed carrying of firearms. Is he a bad guy from a Sergio Leone film or what!

As for the nation of Islam, you only have to watch Malcom X, specifically the part where Malcom goes to the police station to get the guy that they are holding, and the policeman looks out of the window and they all turn and face him as one...... That right there is 'whiteys' problem with Islam. The fact that Muslims are motivated, organised and focused, not like christians who think that someone else will solve their problems for them. Much as I would love to discuss the Black Panthers and Baader Meinhoff, I can hear people already either getting really really bored or really really het up and twitchy, so we will have to leave that one!
Mike Pence is probably the reason Trump has not been impeached. He is literally the least worst option.

He does have really good Hollywood Presidential hair though.

The Malcolm X thing is pure 1970's Black Power/Vietnam protests, but you do need to remember that even other Muslims think the Nation are a bunch of heretic weirdoes. They are a sect that says they are Muslim, but mainstream Islam doesn't recognise them.
 
Mike Pence is probably the reason Trump has not been impeached. He is literally the least worst option.

He does have really good Hollywood Presidential hair though.

The Malcolm X thing is pure 1970's Black Power/Vietnam protests, but you do need to remember that even other Muslims think the Nation are a bunch of heretic weirdoes. They are a sect that says they are Muslim, but mainstream Islam doesn't recognise them.
I think Donny has great hair. My little boy who is almost 2 has Donny-hair. Its great, I love it.

Trouble is with the Nation of Islam is, recognised or not, they still exist. Islam may not embrace them, but they scare the Non Islamics, and that can't necessarily be a bad thing. I can't drill down into the whole Maclcom X thing, as it not a period of history very well known to me, but wern't all protests at the time in some way related to Vietnam? It was the main thing in america throughout the 60s and 70s (bay of pigs excluded, but I don't think the public knew a lot of what really went on there!) It was the event that defined the generation at the time, the whole 'Summer of Love' was a direct result of it.....?
 
I am not a fan of boxing.
He may have been a champion boxer,but that doesn't mean he wasn't scared about being shot at in the jungle.
Even Bruce Springsteen wussed out.
If you are talking about Ali and I am sure you are, even if he had been drafted it would have been very unlikely that he would have been posted to a frontline unit.
He would have ended up in an entertainment troop or lifeguard type post.
There were a hell of a lot of those type of positions around, and not necessarily in VN.
 

DaManBugs

On ROPS
On ROPs
Book Reviewer
I am not a fan of boxing.
He may have been a champion boxer,but that doesn't mean he wasn't scared about being shot at in the jungle.
Even Bruce Springsteen wussed out.
I too believe that Muhammed Ali was a bit wary of getting shot in Vietnam. Who wouldn't be? But his refusal to be conscripted was based on the not unreasonable argument that he saw no reason to fight (and possibly die) for a country that refused to grant him equal and civil rights, just because of the colour of his skin. He also famously remarked that: "Ain't no Viet Cong ever called me a n****r". I very much admired his stance at the time and it certainly helped to bring the whole "colour question" into public focus.

Ali's refusal to serve was in 1966 and the so-called "Jim Crow laws" had been declared void a year before that. But that doesn't mean that they suddenly and magically disappeared in the US, especially in the southern states, where they remain, covertly, valid even to this day.

MsG
 
I too believe that Muhammed Ali was a bit wary of getting shot in Vietnam. Who wouldn't be? But his refusal to be conscripted was based on the not unreasonable argument that he saw no reason to fight (and possibly die) for a country that refused to grant him equal and civil rights, just because of the colour of his skin. He also famously remarked that: "Ain't no Viet Cong ever called me a n****r". I very much admired his stance at the time and it certainly helped to bring the whole "colour question" into public focus.

Ali's refusal to serve was in 1966 and the so-called "Jim Crow laws" had been declared void a year before that. But that doesn't mean that they suddenly and magically disappeared in the US, especially in the southern states, where they remain, covertly, valid even to this day.

MsG
And certainly didn't do his career any major harm. When the capitalist promoters saw that he just fought somewhere else and they were losing SOOOOOOOOO much money, they soon forgave and forgot, didn't they........
 
I think Donny has great hair. My little boy who is almost 2 has Donny-hair. Its great, I love it.

Trouble is with the Nation of Islam is, recognised or not, they still exist. Islam may not embrace them, but they scare the Non Islamics, and that can't necessarily be a bad thing. I can't drill down into the whole Maclcom X thing, as it not a period of history very well known to me, but wern't all protests at the time in some way related to Vietnam? It was the main thing in america throughout the 60s and 70s (bay of pigs excluded, but I don't think the public knew a lot of what really went on there!) It was the event that defined the generation at the time, the whole 'Summer of Love' was a direct result of it.....?
The Nation doesn't exist to scare non Islamics, it exists to scare rednecks. ( The raving anti Semitism it picked up along the way).
The founders wanted a platform to distinguish themselves from the stereotype black image.

Short hair. Uniform dress style. Suits. Bow ties. Ascetic lifestyles. Discipline.
They were trying to show that the black man could have the dignity that the American Christian culture denied them. It was very powerful in its visuals.

Vietnam was the defining foreign policy issue of its day, as Civil Rights was the defining domestic policy problem. It was impossible not to have a position on both, so there was a lot of cross-fertilisation of ideas.
 
The Nation doesn't exist to scare non Islamics, it exists to scare rednecks. ( The raving anti Semitism it picked up along the way).
The founders wanted a platform to distinguish themselves from the stereotype black image.

Short hair. Uniform dress style. Suits. Bow ties. Ascetic lifestyles. Discipline.
They were trying to show that the black man could have the dignity that the American Christian culture denied them. It was very powerful in its visuals.

Vietnam was the defining foreign policy issue of its day, as Civil Rights was the defining domestic policy problem. It was impossible not to have a position on both, so there was a lot of cross-fertilisation of ideas.
I think my comment was lost a little in translation. I didn't mean they scare the Non Islamics Exclusively. Yes, it is that level of organisation that scares the establishment. If they can organise that many people to look in a particular way, what else can they do?
 
I am not a fan of boxing.
He may have been a champion boxer,but that doesn't mean he wasn't scared about being shot at in the jungle.
Even Bruce Springsteen wussed out.
Springsteen failed his medical. 4F.

But "Born in the USA" was the definitive post Vietnam angst song.
The novel "First Blood", later turned into the film "Rambo" was also quite important, dealing with the PTSD problem in veterans.

Stallone's melt down at the end of the film was well acted, it was a pity he failed to see that in the sequels.
 
I think my comment was lost a little in translation. I didn't mean they scare the Non Islamics Exclusively. Yes, it is that level of organisation that scares the establishment. If they can organise that many people to look in a particular way, what else can they do?
As a political movement, not much, especially after their co religionists became public enemy no 1.

As an organised lobby group, I think the various scandals have robbed them of a lot of their power.

If the Trump move to roll back civil rights gains momentum, they might make a comeback.
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
Springsteen failed his medical. 4F.
By his own admission (Rolling Stone interview 1984) he acted up during his induction physical by acting unhinged and playing up on the fact that he been concussed after a motorcycle accident a couple of years before. During an interview with Tom Hanks at the TriBeca film festival last year, he described himself as a “stone-cold draft-dodger", which was probably a bit harsh and seemed to stem from his mixed feelings from being against that war, but having many friends who had served and suffered there.
 

DaManBugs

On ROPS
On ROPs
Book Reviewer
The Nation doesn't exist to scare non Islamics, it exists to scare rednecks. ( The raving anti Semitism it picked up along the way).
The founders wanted a platform to distinguish themselves from the stereotype black image.

Short hair. Uniform dress style. Suits. Bow ties. Ascetic lifestyles. Discipline.
They were trying to show that the black man could have the dignity that the American Christian culture denied them. It was very powerful in its visuals.

Vietnam was the defining foreign policy issue of its day, as Civil Rights was the defining domestic policy problem. It was impossible not to have a position on both, so there was a lot of cross-fertilisation of ideas.
Very well put indeed! The cross-pollination that you mention in your post was indeed very intense and threw up all manner of questions right across the board about the "American way of life" in general as folks realised that social issues can't be isolated.

Folks across the US began asking very pertinent, embarrassing questions and demanding answers. When the best argument the US establishment could offer (in the eyes of the US public at least) was to murder and injure students who were only peacefully protesting, it was just a matter of time.

MsG
 

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