The Vietnam War - 2017

#81
The Septics also put a whole new meaning to the word "slave". There weren't that many Africans actually that went to the US, in contrast to the hundreds of thousands who went to South America, the West Indies, etc, because the Septics established their own domestic slave industry at a comparatively early stage that was centred in Virginia. They had proper "slave farms" where they'd raise slaves and sell them, like cattle. Slaves were the main form of "currency" in the southern states, which is why they were so dead set against abolition.

MsG
Well this is of course true, but as was already mentioned, if they were not seen as citizens, then by extension, the 'owner' could do pretty much as he pleased, which usually meant breaking up families. Proper harsh, and there but for the grace of Bod and all that. There is a great quote from Sharpe actually, the bloke hefts his purse and says "Gold, Slaves and Molasses". Brutal really, if you think about it!




This is the Bugsy that I like. Not the other 'bolshy' one.
 
#82
Does it mention the early days which was covered in detail in the reference book The Devils Guard and the exploits of Sgt: Hans Josef Wagemueller?......
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#83
Nope not at all. Social attitudes have changed significantly. Not exactly like I would have a go at my old man for serving in that era.
IMHO the treatment of Vietnam veterans was a national disgrace. I hope the students and drugged up hippies who spat on vets and threw bags of dogshit at them,hang their heads in shame.(But I doubt it).
I have great respect for Vietnam vets,if I was wearing a hat I would doff it to your old dad.
 
#84
Another one late to the party here, started watching this week. Just starting episode 3, the first two provided an excellent brief history and prompted me to buy a decent book on Dien Bieng Phu.
 
#86
IMHO the treatment of Vietnam veterans was a national disgrace. I hope the students and drugged up hippies who spat on vets and threw bags of dogshit at them,hang their heads in shame.(But I doubt it).
I have great respect for Vietnam vets,if I was wearing a hat I would doff it to your old dad.
Some probably do as they are older and maybe wiser now, some really would not care. It was a great time of social upheaval here in America. The old man has some good stories to tell, which really reflect the times. C rations with a pack of smokes in them, Agent Orange and its effect on the local vegetation. Those men are full of stories if you are willing to listen to them, and most will chat your ear off.
 
#87
Some probably do as they are older and maybe wiser now, some really would not care. It was a great time of social upheaval here in America. The old man has some good stories to tell, which really reflect the times. C rations with a pack of smokes in them, Agent Orange and its effect on the local vegetation. Those men are full of stories if you are willing to listen to them, and most will chat your ear off.
I have met two vets,one while on a trip and the other in Britain. The chap here was a marine and didn't have a lot of time to talk but was very interesting.Something else he said was that he had never been back home in more than forty years.Also,as a black man,he felt more at home in Britain than he ever did in America.
 

DaManBugs

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#88
IMHO the treatment of Vietnam veterans was a national disgrace. I hope the students and drugged up hippies who spat on vets and threw bags of dogshit at them,hang their heads in shame.(But I doubt it).
I have great respect for Vietnam vets,if I was wearing a hat I would doff it to your old dad.
That's the way of it, innit? The US squaddies, who really had no choice in the matter, took all the flak from the stop-the-war wallahs, students etc, and the real culprits, Alan Dulles, John Foster Dulles, McNamara and all the rest of the slimy politicians and spooks who were keeping the whole disaster on the boil did their very best to stay out of the limelight. Twas e'r thus.

MsG
 
#89
Wasn't that tied into the National Service scheme at the time?
Sorry, went out for a couple of beers. To be honest, I don't know, but bearing in mind that we had universal conscription unlike the US draft and I was in an all-Regular training unit, if it were anything to do with NS, their call-up could just have been accelerated. My feeling at the time and now is that they must have been told somehow that NS was not sufficient and it was minimum 3 year Reg or the Scrubs.
 
#90
Sorry, went out for a couple of beers. To be honest, I don't know, but bearing in mind that we had universal conscription unlike the US draft and I was in an all-Regular training unit, if it were anything to do with NS, their call-up could just have been accelerated. My feeling at the time and now is that they must have been told somehow that NS was not sufficient and it was minimum 3 year Reg or the Scrubs.
(No dramas, I had 3 Ciders) Proper bad lads then. It is good that one turned himself around though. People keep banging on about how they should bring back National Service today. Only if there was a 100% guarantee that we would never see them. The Scrubs Prison Officers bar is a right laugh. Worst jukebox ever, and one of my past times is putting rubbish songs on the jukebox. Win win.
 

Goatman

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#91
#92
(No dramas, I had 3 Ciders) Proper bad lads then. It is good that one turned himself around though. People keep banging on about how they should bring back National Service today. Only if there was a 100% guarantee that we would never see them. The Scrubs Prison Officers bar is a right laugh. Worst jukebox ever, and one of my past times is putting rubbish songs on the jukebox. Win win.
That's worth a 'like' a 'funny' and an 'informative'. Made me smile lots. Yes, the good lad on day two was restrained from following a lance-jack into the night and stabbing him with his newly issued shiny jack-knife. Two weeks later he was really mucking in and by the end he was definitely one of the good guys, who from a miserable hard man had turned into a proper "If you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined", smiling, piss-taking squaddie. The other was a klepto.
 
#93
That's worth a 'like' a 'funny' and an 'informative'. Made me smile lots. Yes, the good lad on day two was restrained from following a lance-jack into the night and stabbing him with his newly issued shiny jack-knife. Two weeks later he was really mucking in and by the end he was definitely one of the good guys, who from a miserable hard man had turned into a proper "If you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined", smiling, piss-taking squaddie. The other was a klepto.
and THAT is why I love the army. Other fella can eff right off, but that bloke got it. Nice one.
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
#94
That's the way of it, innit? The US squaddies, who really had no choice in the matter, took all the flak from the stop-the-war wallahs, students etc, and the real culprits, Alan Dulles, John Foster Dulles, McNamara and all the rest of the slimy politicians and spooks who were keeping the whole disaster on the boil did their very best to stay out of the limelight.
Macnamara recorded an interview for the Open University module 'America in the 20th Century' - he makes some interesting points...not least a reiteration of the domino theory as it was perceived at the time, not with 2020 hindsight.

If I can find a sensible way to digitise it I will upload to Tube Yu
 
#95
Eh? 'Reference book'?

You don't realise that the book and the main character are nothing but fiction?

Good God.
:D:D:D:D absolutely!!

I read that particular 'reference book' during an exercise on Soltau; right up there with other informative tomes such as the Sven Hassel sagas for its historical insight.

That said, it is very likely that a number of Waffen-SS specimens did 'disappear' in to the ranks of the Legion (not that gay Spanish one) as France was desperate to re-establish its authority in French Indochina as soon as (they initially even retained armed Japanese troops for the purpose). The Legion has at times not been too choosy about the background of some recruits and some on the losing side looking to disappear after WWII would have seen this as a viable route and may even have been equal to the task. The Devil's Guard is a work of fiction based on that premise.
 
#96
That's the way of it, innit? The US squaddies, who really had no choice in the matter, took all the flak from the stop-the-war wallahs, students etc, and the real culprits, Alan Dulles, John Foster Dulles, McNamara and all the rest of the slimy politicians and spooks who were keeping the whole disaster on the boil did their very best to stay out of the limelight. Twas e'r thus.

MsG
Allen Dulles "resigned" from the CIA in 1961. He died in 1969. John Foster Dulles died in 1959 so I would say, yes, they were very much out of the limelight.
 
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#97
I think I did. Sorry about that.

The feeling I got from watching Roots (I know, I know) was that the white plantation owner would see the slaves that he 'owned' (and lets not get sidetracked with the philosophical implications of that statement) as a capital outlay rather than a curse, a possession - such as Chicken George and what he became 'worth' after the cockfights etc, would it not be fair to say that the puritans lived mainly in the North of america? The South were devout yes, but puritanical? No way - Look at all the illegal stills and the gambling!
The original Puritans settled the northern seaboard, but the whole 17th-19th century settlement of the West was often led by religious loonies seeking a place to practice their faith.
(The Mormons being a prime example- the Federal government nearly went to war with them).
The Southern states tended to a more "aristocratic'"style of government as they looked to Europe as markets.
I think the Deep South religion nowadays tends to the Baptist and happy-clappy Pentecostalism, but I am not sure what it was like during the ACW.

Slaves were a capital investment, and in contrast to the North which industrialised early, the South used humans as capital.
 
#98
Do you have a source for that? As far as I am aware, Calley was reclassified after dropping out of college, he then enlisted and (in a criminal response to desperate manning pressures) selected for and passed through Officer Candidate School (OCS).

There were some famous reclassifications under the Project 100,000 scheme, which among other things lowered the threshold down to include men who scored as Category IV in the Armed Forces Qualification Test (AQT). This effectively meant the 10-30% scoring group (Cat V is the lowest). Cassius Clay (as was then) was probably the most famous, having been initially classified as 1-Y only to be re-classified as 1-A some years later as draft calls increased.

1-Y by the way was a classification that fell short of 4-F as a temporary deferment that disqualified men for mental/academic/physical shortcomings unless needed in a national emergency or in the event that they improved. It was a classification that Draft Boards used fairly liberally (apparently it avoided the 'stigma' of 4-F) until it was abolished in 1971.

Project 100,000 wasn't the only time that 'substandard' recruits were inducted into the US Armed Forces. During WW2 for example, illiterate recruits were still inducted, but subjected to remedial education. Project 100,000 men were supposed to marked for special training also, but there is little evidence that they actually did.



Yes they were. As I wrote earlier, they were in effect, just doing what was expected of them at the time. Times changed though and in the late 1970s and early 1980s there was a rush of baby-boomer politician types joining the Reserves and NG as a means to claim some military service. Gary Hart (he of the 'Monkey Business') was probably the most famous case , commissioning as he did as a USNR JAG lawyer.
Unfortunately I can't source the information on Calley's status, it's something remembered from a book on the massacre written in the 70's that I read in the same time period. I did notice in his bio in Wiki that there's about 3 years between when he failed out of college and when he entered military service. I brought him up really to show the extent the US went to in order to cast a wider net.

The biggest complaints about the college deferments is that it favored the economically better off who could afford 4 years of Basket Weaving with post grad work in looming to keep that deferment until they were too old to draft while the more economically challenged had little choice. The National Guard option was a crap shoot as there was always a possibility they would activate the unit and send them over. Guard units during the crunch years of the draft were at maximum numbers or close to it. that's where the controversy with Bush Jr. comes in. It's been rumored that he got his slot in a filled unit through influence or the family outright paying for the slot.
 
#99
:D:D:D:D absolutely!!

I read that particular 'reference book' during an exercise on Soltau; right up there with other informative tomes such as the Sven Hassel sagas for its historical insight.

That said, it is very likely that a number of Waffen-SS specimens did 'disappear' in to the ranks of the Legion (not that gay Spanish one) as France was desperate to re-establish its authority in French Indochina as soon as (they initially even retained armed Japanese troops for the purpose). The Legion has at times not been too choosy about the background of some recruits and some on the losing side looking to disappear after WWII would have seen this as a viable route and may even have been equal to the task. The Devil's Guard is a work of fiction based on that premise.
@ex_colonial met one, if you haven't read his memoirs.
 
that's where the controversy with Bush Jr. comes in. It's been rumored that he got his slot in a filled unit through influence or the family outright paying for the slot.
Bush got his slot for a very simple reason

You need X number of new pilots

You have Y number of candidates you are interviewing

Most need several weeks to several months in order to put personal affairs in order

Bush says he is ready to go in several DAYS

Who would you choose?

Especially knowing how long it takes for the USAF to turn out a pilot?

Remember first he goes to Lackland AFB for Basic training as an enlisted Airman,
then to officer school
then to primary flight school
then to advanced flight school
then to F-102 transition training
 

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