The US Navy is failing to prepare recruits for madness of shipborne life - lessons for RN?

I doubt it.

My time at DDS was characterised by a whole host of cowboy senior rates entirely happy with running their own fiefdom.

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I save a certain dislike for divers and their cutting about in tracksuits... Them Andy clubswingers.
 
There must have been a sea-change then, as from what I have seen in my very brief exposure to them, safety features highly.
then I am pleased, because my 18 month exposure to them as a Ship's Diver and then Guns/corro in an MCMV convinced me they were the biggest bunch of cowboys I'd ever met.
 
then I am pleased, because my 18 month exposure to them as a Ship's Diver and then Guns/corro in an MCMV convinced me they were the biggest bunch of cowboys I'd ever met.
Uniform Traditionalist/Grumpy Git Mode ACTIVE//
Perhaps if they were made to dress like "proper sailors" instead of soldiers, then the sense of entitlement might be reduced. PCS is supposed to remove the need for MTP in the RN, except when doing solder-type things.
That well known made up rig of PCS and caps usually.
Now subject to a TM - 3's with caps; 4's/PCS with beret, except when undergoing Ceremonial Training.
//Uniform Traditionalist/Grumpy Git Mode DE-ACTIVEVATED
 
Uniform Traditionalist/Grumpy Git Mode ACTIVE//
Perhaps if they were made to dress like "proper sailors" instead of soldiers, then the sense of entitlement might be reduced. PCS is supposed to remove the need for MTP in the RN, except when doing solder-type things.

Now subject to a TM - 3's with caps; 4's/PCS with beret, except when undergoing Ceremonial Training.
//Uniform Traditionalist/Grumpy Git Mode DE-ACTIVEVATED

If I could love this post, I would. Nothing pleased me more than divers being told to stop cutting about in any mixed rig they want and remember they are in the Navy not a buckshee EOD brigade.
 
I don't mind cutting around on mixed rig (mainly because I'm a remarkably slack naval officer).

What I do object to is a bunch of senior rates believing their own bullshit and attempting to justify life threatening attitudes by the fact I'm not on Cat 5 pay.

And the abrogation by certain MCDOs who should grip these SRs and give them a bloody good head wobble.

I don't think rig is a good indication of professionalism: unimpeachable equipment care standards and rigorous training processes are.


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ugly

LE
Moderator
Funnily enough my experience of Naval Divers comes from a relative. A very laid back chap, involved in the RN diving during and post war. His attitude to life seems to have been formed by the major risks he undertook in what must have been the early days of free diving.
I bet though that anyone gripped for dress issues by someone outside of their own organisation would be derided behind his back as a know nothing remf (or fish head equivalent!) regardless of the reason behind it.
General Tal introduced bull and discipline into the Israeli Tank Corps in response to the horrific accident when a crew members slack drills caused a round to detonate prematurely. At the lads funeral he declared no more training accident and he was right. He dramatically reduced them and was reverred for this.
 
There must have been a sea-change then, as from what I have seen in my very brief exposure to them, safety features highly.
Dunno now but...used to be shit hot catering there. Not much fun running round the lake in a drybag to get to it though.
 
Funnily enough my experience of Naval Divers comes from a relative. A very laid back chap, involved in the RN diving during and post war. His attitude to life seems to have been formed by the major risks he undertook in what must have been the early days of free diving.
I bet though that anyone gripped for dress issues by someone outside of their own organisation would be derided behind his back as a know nothing remf (or fish head equivalent!) regardless of the reason behind it.
General Tal introduced bull and discipline into the Israeli Tank Corps in response to the horrific accident when a crew members slack drills caused a round to detonate prematurely. At the lads funeral he declared no more training accident and he was right. He dramatically reduced them and was reverred for this.
My experience of witnessing 'dress issues' and outside organisation in the RN is:

Me getting screamed at for wearing my beret outside past a certain demarcation line at RNAS Yeovilton.
Later seeing someone (some CPO gunner who was there for reasons I have no idea) getting all worked up about people NOT wearing berets enroute to scran at Yeovil.

In around '2000the RN started trialing a new rig. Instead of the 8's shirt (light blue fireproofed equiv of the army shirt) there was to be a Norgy style top. There was no requirement to sew a branch badge on it, just rank/rate eppaulettes. Only certain ships were issued it though, and it had to be done on a one-for-one basis at slops. Imagine the fun to be had when issued with said Gucci new kit and then to get drafted shoreside where (in many cases) they had never even heard of this new rig) or a ship where you were the only one to be wearing it. The RN also had the same issue when they did away with the old Falklands era 'foulie jackets'..
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
Me getting screamed at for wearing my beret outside past a certain demarcation line at RNAS Yeovilton.
Later seeing someone (some CPO gunner who was there for reasons I have no idea) getting all worked up about people NOT wearing berets enroute to scran at Yeovil.
Berets to walk to scoff, its an RE thing, they get all bent out of shape that a brace up is the equivalent of a salute. Poor RSM
 
More pertinently, given this is Yeovilton, it's an airfield thing...


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My experience of witnessing 'dress issues' and outside organisation in the RN is:

Me getting screamed at for wearing my beret outside past a certain demarcation line at RNAS Yeovilton.
Later seeing someone (some CPO gunner who was there for reasons I have no idea) getting all worked up about people NOT wearing berets enroute to scran at Yeovil.

In around '2000the RN started trialing a new rig. Instead of the 8's shirt (light blue fireproofed equiv of the army shirt) there was to be a Norgy style top. There was no requirement to sew a branch badge on it, just rank/rate eppaulettes. Only certain ships were issued it though, and it had to be done on a one-for-one basis at slops. Imagine the fun to be had when issued with said Gucci new kit and then to get drafted shoreside where (in many cases) they had never even heard of this new rig) or a ship where you were the only one to be wearing it. The RN also had the same issue when they did away with the old Falklands era 'foulie jackets'..
I had that....the Arm of Service(Irish) that I was in was the first to be issued new working dress that was immediately nicknamed safari jackets, because of the multiplicity of pockets. It also came with a cravat and a baseball cap, which were immediately declared naff and deliberately not worn or "lost" and some of the lads were sent to an Army establishment for an NCO's course and in time honoured fashion, first day in, kit inspection, they laid out the new gear, quite unaware that the Army had not yet recieved it. Cue a tirade of screaming from the SNCOs and Officers until it was proven beyond doubt that the kit was genuine issue, we had got it first and the memo had clearly not reached the Depot.
 
Funnily enough, I’ve “lost” my baseball cap too.

Back in 2005, all new entrants to Raleigh were issued the blue norgie tops for the duration of phase one, though they had to be returned after the pass out parade.

And my favourite TLA (with extra letters) is found in the morning shakes log in the SCC when you have a wren watchkeeper! GSHWDWYSSL (Good Shake, Half Way Down, With Your Silky Soft Lips).

Finally on the discussion of MTP and caps, there was once a STO(N) officer (civil Service employed in a deployed billet and entitled to wear Naval uniform with EXTREMELY dark (so dark you thought it was black) green between the rings, who would wear DPM with cap while down the falklands so you’d salute him out of confusion seeing as he wasn’t entitled to a salute (STONery only got epaulets apparently as people would mistake them for being waiters at events or so I’m told).


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ugly

LE
Moderator
More pertinently, given this is Yeovilton, it's an airfield thing...


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Surely fod rules mean nothing loose? Anyway I refused as I could confuse the enemy (RSM) by being Light Div.
 
Funnily enough, I’ve “lost” my baseball cap too.

Back in 2005, all new entrants to Raleigh were issued the blue norgie tops for the duration of phase one, though they had to be returned after the pass out parade.

And my favourite TLA (with extra letters) is found in the morning shakes log in the SCC when you have a wren watchkeeper! GSHWDWYSSL (Good Shake, Half Way Down, With Your Silky Soft Lips).

Finally on the discussion of MTP and caps, there was once a STO(N) officer (civil Service employed in a deployed billet and entitled to wear Naval uniform with EXTREMELY dark (so dark you thought it was black) green between the rings, who would wear DPM with cap while down the falklands so you’d salute him out of confusion seeing as he wasn’t entitled to a salute (STONery only got epaulets apparently as people would mistake them for being waiters at events or so I’m told).


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Sadly the STON department is no more! So now you have Junior deck and Logistic officers looking after all the ammo! Talking about a safety case so im sticking to tankers....

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Sadly the STON department is no more! So now you have Junior deck and Logistic officers looking after all the ammo! /QUOTE]
I was at ammunition share holders when the Petty Officer (Stores) was going through the inventory on a Type 23 when the Logs Officer mentioned he had forgotten about the 8 x Harpoon on the pointy end. He then sheepishly went to investigate why it isn't recorded anywhere. The XO's face was a picture.
 
Sorry, wasn't meant to sound like I was preaching but if what was being said about the USN was accurate then it is going to be dysfunctional. It took the aviation industry a few monumental stuff-ups before they started to think there had to be a better way and the crash-rate has been declining despite there being a monumental increase in the volume of air traffic.
Just Culture is increasingly prevalent within the bits of HMAF I am/have been exposed too. Although not aircrew, even 'air aware' pers like me, are being exposed to just culture through the efforts of the MAA. The Cousins are just a bit too Borg like sometimes.
 
As an example of how and why Just Culture works, the airline I work for brought it in after a record season of loaders and caterers hitting their vehicles off the aircraft, practically everyday, with the usual shouty blame game and denials and so on. It didn't only apply to them but they had cornered the "market" on hitting aircraft and were costing the airline hundreds of thousands per year and associated Union bad humour/truculent loaders/lost flights/delays/grumpy passengers and the rest....when it was made clear that if anyone immediately fessed up to hitting an aircraft, they were not sacked instantly, as had been the case, and did not conceal the act and allow the aircraft to leave with damage, then they would get a bollocking but it would go no further. Once a certain amount of retraining and some modification of procedures happened, the damage rate dropped noticeably and previous normal humour was restored. It's not flawless, but it did make a difference.........the downside of Just Culture is that those who are genuinely to blame for putting others at risk can get away with it.
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
I spent a miserable 11 months at Network Rail under Bechtel. Everywhere were posters stating no blame culture but the humourless b'stards didn't do irony. If made a howler I put my hand up straight away. It usually caused shock and silence as the team was used to Bechtel demanding the head of the lowest grade in the room as compensation. I was too senior and knew too much.
They never once asked why I would readily take the blame, they didn't have a learn from your mistakes culture so didn't understand that the first step is to accept something was wrong and look into why it went wrong starting with the responsible persons thought and decision process!
Fools indeed. I was over the moon when they wangled my redundancy!
 

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