The US Navy is failing to prepare recruits for madness of shipborne life - lessons for RN?

Whilst not wishing to get into specifics, it was disheartening that we fired a female CO for actions plenty of male COs had “got away with”.

Unfortunately we decided to pass up an opportunity to enforce some standards consistently.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Whilst not wishing to get into specifics, it was disheartening that we fired a female CO for actions plenty of male COs had “got away with”.

Unfortunately we decided to pass up an opportunity to enforce some standards consistently.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Very true @alfred_the_great, I knew many a male CO and XO for that matter who fraternised with the lower deck - one of whom went on to marry.

I’ve had a few young CO’s who knew they weren’t getting another ‘drive’ who drove the ship like they stole it.
 
No need for the RN to worry about this, by the time this shower of shite has finished with yet another slashing of the defence budget, there won’t be any ships to worry about.
 
No need for the RN to worry about this, by the time this shower of shite has finished with yet another slashing of the defence budget, there won’t be any ships to worry about.
Call my a silly old git, but after nearly 20 years of dits/buzzes and conjecture; I think we are using what we’ve got more efficiently. Of course this will come with resistance from the old and bold, but change is inevitable. Although, at times unpleasant.
 

Guns

ADC
Moderator
Book Reviewer
No need for the RN to worry about this, by the time this shower of shite has finished with yet another slashing of the defence budget, there won’t be any ships to worry about.
Sure, gramps.
 
Last edited:
I have read this thread with increasing levels of astonishment, if not total incredulity at how a supposedly intelligent body can so eff-it-up!

For the last 18 years or so I have worked in civil aviation, primarily as a pilot and for the last few years, as a safety manager for a small aviation business. What is being hammered into the civil aviation industry is the concept of risk management. Aviation can never be totally safe so identify the risks and put in place mitigation to reduce the risk to as low as reasonably practicable. The method for doing this is a safety management system.

A SMS (must reduce to acronym all this lot of military types will never understand) has essentially 4 components; a reporting system so that mistakes or potential hazards are known about; a just culture so that people who report mistakes or potential hazards are not penalised for the error; a flexible management who are willing to change in the light of reported hazards; and a reporting system that lets the person who reported in the first place know that their report was taken seriously and what has changed as a result. The SMS has become a very powerful tool so much so that other industries are adopting the concept, an example being the medical profession.

I suspect that the military would have problems with the just culture and not penalising someone who has stuffed up. In todays world of civilian aviation the most common reason for an incident is human error (approx. 80% and has been since the dawn of aviation). In line operations safety audits (LOSA - acronyms, acronyms) where an auditor just observes a flight crew in operations it was observed that on average 3 mistakes were made but were picked up by the multi-crew procedures in place. LOSA looks at the time taken to recognise a mistake and if it is not then a report is submitted, not about the crew, but about the cause of not picking up the mistake. In other words, humans make mistakes, even very well trained ones so lets learn from them. If you penalise someone for erring, they will keep quiet about it and the opportunity to learn is lost.

The single biggest failing in aviation is human and the studies of human factors is immense. Fatigue is recognised as a monumental killer. A study done in Australia with the participation of QANTAS found that pilots coming off a long-haul flight who were then placed in a simulator and asked to perform a series of manoeuvres were performing as though they had a blood-alcohol level equivalent to 0.01. To translate this to a ships crew going into a combat situation already fatigued where fatigue will become an issue is to court disaster. As someone noted earlier, perhaps thats why US destroyers are colliding with animate objects despite all the bells and whistles they possess. I also note that several senior officers in the US 7th Fleet have lost their jobs over the collisions even though they weren't on the ships concerned and that the commanding officers of the two destroyers have been, or are to be, court martialed although neither, I think, was on the bridge at the time. A superb example of an old practice being continued despite logic.
 
I have read this thread with increasing levels of astonishment, if not total incredulity at how a supposedly intelligent body can so eff-it-up!

For the last 18 years or so I have worked in civil aviation, primarily as a pilot and for the last few years, as a safety manager for a small aviation business. What is being hammered into the civil aviation industry is the concept of risk management. Aviation can never be totally safe so identify the risks and put in place mitigation to reduce the risk to as low as reasonably practicable. The method for doing this is a safety management system.

A SMS (must reduce to acronym all this lot of military types will never understand) has essentially 4 components; a reporting system so that mistakes or potential hazards are known about; a just culture so that people who report mistakes or potential hazards are not penalised for the error; a flexible management who are willing to change in the light of reported hazards; and a reporting system that lets the person who reported in the first place know that their report was taken seriously and what has changed as a result. The SMS has become a very powerful tool so much so that other industries are adopting the concept, an example being the medical profession.

I suspect that the military would have problems with the just culture and not penalising someone who has stuffed up. In todays world of civilian aviation the most common reason for an incident is human error (approx. 80% and has been since the dawn of aviation). In line operations safety audits (LOSA - acronyms, acronyms) where an auditor just observes a flight crew in operations it was observed that on average 3 mistakes were made but were picked up by the multi-crew procedures in place. LOSA looks at the time taken to recognise a mistake and if it is not then a report is submitted, not about the crew, but about the cause of not picking up the mistake. In other words, humans make mistakes, even very well trained ones so lets learn from them. If you penalise someone for erring, they will keep quiet about it and the opportunity to learn is lost.

The single biggest failing in aviation is human and the studies of human factors is immense. Fatigue is recognised as a monumental killer. A study done in Australia with the participation of QANTAS found that pilots coming off a long-haul flight who were then placed in a simulator and asked to perform a series of manoeuvres were performing as though they had a blood-alcohol level equivalent to 0.01. To translate this to a ships crew going into a combat situation already fatigued where fatigue will become an issue is to court disaster. As someone noted earlier, perhaps thats why US destroyers are colliding with animate objects despite all the bells and whistles they possess. I also note that several senior officers in the US 7th Fleet have lost their jobs over the collisions even though they weren't on the ships concerned and that the commanding officers of the two destroyers have been, or are to be, court martialed although neither, I think, was on the bridge at the time. A superb example of an old practice being continued despite logic.
brilliant, why didn't we think of all that.
 
brilliant, why didn't we think of all that.
Do the ships flight still have the “white rat” box where anonymous notes regarding safety concerns can be deposited? Remember the 22s I served on had variations of the same.
 
brilliant, why didn't we think of all that.
Do the ships flight still have the “white rat” box where anonymous notes regarding safety concerns can be deposited? Remember the 22s I served on had variations of the same.
Yes.

It’s just under the notice board that outlines how we have implemented the “just culture” in the RN over the last 10+ years...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
brilliant, why didn't we think of all that.
Sorry, wasn't meant to sound like I was preaching but if what was being said about the USN was accurate then it is going to be dysfunctional. It took the aviation industry a few monumental stuff-ups before they started to think there had to be a better way and the crash-rate has been declining despite there being a monumental increase in the volume of air traffic.
 
Do the ships flight still have the “white rat” box where anonymous notes regarding safety concerns can be deposited? Remember the 22s I served on had variations of the same.
It is now called the 'anymouse' box @supermatelot, but it is still there . It is usually put next to a clear A4 plastic wallet with all the FOD (Foreign Object Debris) that accumulates on the upper deck and has been missed when conducting FOD PLODS. Having been involved in a helo ditch, also my oppo was on a Mine Countermeasure Vessel who had to look for the wreckage that had sunk to recover the crew, flight safety is a very real concern. As @alfred_the_great has alluded to, we have a 'just culture' in the RN.
 
Last edited:
Years ago, we used to call it “the battle of the Pl Comdrs”. A competition to stay in work the longest and be seen doing so by The CO/OC. In the vain belief that it would make them appear more committed and hard working.

Unfortunately The CO/OC did nothing to discourage or challenge this and it becomes a self destructive cycle with subordinates thinking this was what was expected to progress.
No different to civvie st then. A stupid idea that activity = productivity, so maximum activity = maximum productivity. Just how many holes have been poked in that line of reasoning down the years? Lots and lots i would hazard.

Anyway if you are in an organisation run by managers who think they will impress the boss and climb the greasy pole by making their subordinates lives a misery then perhaps it is time to look elsewhere. There are better options out there.
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
It is now called the 'anymouse' box @supermatelot, but it is still there . It is usually put next to a clear A4 plastic wallet with all the FOD (Foreign Object Debris) that accumulates on the upper deck and has been missed when conducting FOD PLODS. Having been involved in a helo ditch, also my oppo was on a Mine Countermeasure Vessel who had to look for the wreckage that had sunk to recover the crew, flight safety is a very real concern. As @alfred_the_great has alluded to, we have a 'just culture' in the RN.
Back in the day when Japhet was Noah's Flight Deck Officer there was a system called 'Airmiss' for anonymous reporting, dits from which were published in Flight Deck to encourage the others.
 
No different to civvie st then. A stupid idea that activity = productivity, so maximum activity = maximum productivity. Just how many holes have been poked in that line of reasoning down the years? Lots and lots i would hazard.

Anyway if you are in an organisation run by managers who think they will impress the boss and climb the greasy pole by making their subordinates lives a misery then perhaps it is time to look elsewhere. There are better options out there.
I wonder......

On other threads people have commented on aspects of American culture, namely being expected to work long hours, little holiday entitlement, and low job security. The net effect is that Americans are tired and stressed, which partly explains recent political developments. I expect tiredness and stress also contributes to gun violence and other American problems.

A hard charging culture coupled with asking for help/admitting mistakes is weakness.

I once saw a programme about bomb disposal in Northern Ireland, and in the early years operators got killed in high numbers. Part of the response was psychological testing to wed out the thrill seekers/Adrenalin junkies. One of the guys explained they did not want gung ho types, but people who could form a plan, and then stop to reassess if things changed or more information was available.
 
https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/how-systems-create-their-own-behaviour.272894/

The original article: How Systems Create Their Own Behavior

Organizations that reward negative behaviors create toxic workplace cultures. Even if a few poor performing individuals leave, those vacant positions will be replaced by others exhibiting similar behavior unless if incentives structure or reward systems are fixed.

Seeing that systems create their own behavior means we don’t blame the natural disaster or the individual, but the conditions of the system.

All systems are governed by circular cause-and-effect relationships called feedback loops. Sometimes, these behaviors snowball exponentially in what is called a reinforcing feedback loop. For example, wealthy people have a keen ability to invest their current wealth into future income-generating investments, which creates more and more. Sometimes, the system reacts to growth and balances it. When rising inequality reaches the public conscience, divisions between “the haves” and “the have nots” lead to protests and collectivist support for policies that raise taxes and redistribute wealth.

The result is that systems have an abundant number of reinforcing and balancing feedback loops that together create the behaviors that we see day-to-day. If you want to change behavior, look to the underlying feedback structure.
 
I wonder......

On other threads people have commented on aspects of American culture, namely being expected to work long hours, little holiday entitlement, and low job security. The net effect is that Americans are tired and stressed, which partly explains recent political developments. I expect tiredness and stress also contributes to gun violence and other American problems.

A hard charging culture coupled with asking for help/admitting mistakes is weakness.

I once saw a programme about bomb disposal in Northern Ireland, and in the early years operators got killed in high numbers. Part of the response was psychological testing to wed out the thrill seekers/Adrenalin junkies. One of the guys explained they did not want gung ho types, but people who could form a plan, and then stop to reassess if things changed or more information was available.

in my previous jobs I've worked plenty of unpaid overtime etc. when the job required it however it was never seen as normal running. latterly when I worked for a big US O&G company it was quite common but my assessment is that it was 70% down to workload (increasing due to redundancies) and 30% due to people just getting into the habit of working in the evenings, so not so much culture as conditioning.

I'm currently working for an Italian company with some 60-70% of my colleagues being Italian or Neapolitan (as many of them insist). If some senior punter is in the office then they will all stay in work regardless if they need to speak to him/her or if they actually have any work to do. it's very odd.
 
.
It is now called the 'anymouse' box @supermatelot, but it is still there ...
I saw one of them at a diving facility I was at a week or two ago, and assumed it was a divers thing, not an aviators thing. I suppose divers have a vested interest in risk avoidance.
I doubt it.

My time at DDS was characterised by a whole host of cowboy senior rates entirely happy with running their own fiefdom.

I think the crown censures may've helped change that attitude though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I doubt it.

My time at DDS was characterised by a whole host of cowboy senior rates entirely happy with running their own fiefdom.

I think the crown censures may've helped change that attitude though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There must have been a sea-change then, as from what I have seen in my very brief exposure to them, safety features highly.
 

Similar threads


Latest Threads

Top