The unimaginatively titled general cricket thread.

I think the wasted talent in recent years has been Moeen, particularly in England, where he was capable of bowling sides out. And, unlike Leach, Parkinson, Bess and any of the other “specialist” spin bowlers, he’s a test quality batsman.

He was dreadfully managed in India this year. In fact, he’s been dreadfully managed throughout his career. I think I’m right in saying, he has batted at every position from 1-8.

Mo has just shy of 3000 runs and 200 wickets; he’s head and shoulders the best spin bowling option for England. Only three England slow bowlers have taken more wickets (I use slow, not spin, because Underwood is one).

Did the “dreadful mismanagement in India of Ali” include:
– giving him Covid;
– absolutely insisting he flew home after his one and only test match, despite the captain asking him to stay

By Jove, you’re on good form.
 
Please list on here a summary of Jack Leach’s test match career today, including the six test matches he played in the subcontinent earlier this year; then, justify your (idiotic) comment.
Leach is the most orthodox of orthodox spinners. He can bowl sides out on spinning pitches, which is why his first class record is so good bowling on Taunton burners. But there is no mystery to his bowling and he bowls at least one respite ball an over. He is not and never will be able to bowl out good sides on flat pitches, nor will he ever be a bowler who the captain throws the ball at to break a partnership with a wicket in his first over. He is not a front line spinner and would arguably not get into any other test team.
Did the “dreadful mismanagement in India of Ali” include:
– giving him Covid;
– absolutely insisting he flew home after his one and only test match, despite the captain asking him to stay

By Jove, you’re on good form.
Yep. Moeen is England’s third most successful test spinner ever. Previous tour to India, he bowled beautifully and was a match winner bowling in tandem with Adil Rashid. He should have been an early name on the team sheet for every test this time. Instead, he was told he would be going home after the second test to rest before the one day series.

But he wasn’t selected for the first despite being out of isolation (he hadn’t been ill, just had a positive test). They picked Bess ahead of him, a man who has probably never bowled an over without a full toss.

Coming in for the second test, he bowled very well and scored runs. So Root asked him to stay on. Not really surprising he said no.
 

Fat POM

War Hero
Clatter of wickets at the end of the day in the ladies test. Interesting day coming up tomorrow
 
Leach is the most orthodox of orthodox spinners. He can bowl sides out on spinning pitches, which is why his first class record is so good bowling on Taunton burners. But there is no mystery to his bowling and he bowls at least one respite ball an over. He is not and never will be able to bowl out good sides on flat pitches, nor will he ever be a bowler who the captain throws the ball at to break a partnership with a wicket in his first over. He is not a front line spinner and would arguably not get into any other test team.

Yep. Moeen is England’s third most successful test spinner ever. Previous tour to India, he bowled beautifully and was a match winner bowling in tandem with Adil Rashid. He should have been an early name on the team sheet for every test this time. Instead, he was told he would be going home after the second test to rest before the one day series.

But he wasn’t selected for the first despite being out of isolation (he hadn’t been ill, just had a positive test). They picked Bess ahead of him, a man who has probably never bowled an over without a full toss.

Coming in for the second test, he bowled very well and scored runs. So Root asked him to stay on. Not really surprising he said no.

There is so much wrong with that, I haven’t the energy to reply to every point.

You have ducked most of the direct questions I asked you.

You’ve harked back to the previous tour Ali made to India, while ignoring that Leach was the top wicket taker on the previous tour of Sri Lanka.

If you do want to go back to previous performances, John Snow is still knocking around in the upper 70s…
 
Sorry, Sir Geoffrey, what is your choice being the finest run out merchant Yorkshire has ever produced?
Think Brearley, Randall, Lord Botham & Richard Lumb(11 times)

If you would put that into English, I’ll try to answer it for you.
In an effort to assist, I was suggesting that four of his picks were bad ones.
What the hell this has to do with that selfish bugger Boycott, and his record for running out batting partners, I have not a Scooby bloody Do !
 
There is so much wrong with that, I haven’t the energy to reply to every point.

You have ducked most of the direct questions I asked you.

You’ve harked back to the previous tour Ali made to India, while ignoring that Leach was the top wicket taker on the previous tour of Sri Lanka.

If you do want to go back to previous performances, John Snow is still knocking around in the upper 70s…
Leach fanboi are your.

In what way does Leach’s performance on burners in Sri Lanka make him a “front line spinner”. When he starts taking wickets on a flat pitch on day 1 of a test, I’ll start believing he’s a top test bowler. Swann did. Lyon does. Ashwin does. I’ll look forward to watching Smith take Leach apart at the SCG this summer.

As for Moeen, you’re entitled to your opinion. Mine differs; I think England have squandered his talent. There’s so much wrong with England’s selection and rotation policy and the leadership and players like Moeen and Chris Woakes have every right to be seriously pissed off. Why did England select Bess over Moeen? Bess can’t bowl an over without bowling a full toss.

Not sure why you brought John Snow into the argument; he wasn’t a spin bowler.
 
Watching the early exchanges in the World Test Match final between New Zealand and India from Southampton. NZ won the toss and put India into bat in testing, overcast conditions. So far, an excellent, even match, with some great bowling and good batting.
I can’t help feeling if England were batting they would be 3 or 4 wickets down by now!
 
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Leach fanboi are your.

In what way does Leach’s performance on burners in Sri Lanka make him a “front line spinner”. When he starts taking wickets on a flat pitch on day 1 of a test, I’ll start believing he’s a top test bowler. Swann did. Lyon does. Ashwin does. I’ll look forward to watching Smith take Leach apart at the SCG this summer.

As for Moeen, you’re entitled to your opinion. Mine differs; I think England have squandered his talent. There’s so much wrong with England’s selection and rotation policy and the leadership and players like Moeen and Chris Woakes have every right to be seriously pissed off. Why did England select Bess over Moeen? Bess can’t bowl an over without bowling a full toss.

Not sure why you brought John Snow into the argument; he wasn’t a spin bowler.

From the sentence at the end of your first full paragraph, I assume you support Australia?

Do some homework – Bess was picked for the first test in India because Ali wasn’t fit enough.

The point about taking wickets on first day pitches is unrealistic – England turns up a spinner at the level of Laker/Underwood/Swann about once a generation.

Leach is the best we have, and has done bloody well despite the ECB trying to wreck his action (when not a single umpire called him), and illness – oh, and people like you being pretty ridiculous about his effectiveness.

Either you want to select Ali (you are quiet on how he went in Australia four years ago) without having addressed that he declined a request after the second test to stay on in India – IPL being his priority – or you are Chris Silverwood in disguise, wanting to play an all-seam attacked (when the sun is shining).
 
From the sentence at the end of your first full paragraph, I assume you support Australia?

Do some homework – Bess was picked for the first test in India because Ali wasn’t fit enough.

The point about taking wickets on first day pitches is unrealistic – England turns up a spinner at the level of Laker/Underwood/Swann about once a generation.

Leach is the best we have, and has done bloody well despite the ECB trying to wreck his action (when not a single umpire called him), and illness – oh, and people like you being pretty ridiculous about his effectiveness.

Either you want to select Ali (you are quiet on how he went in Australia four years ago) without having addressed that he declined a request after the second test to stay on in India – IPL being his priority – or you are Chris Silverwood in disguise, wanting to play an all-seam attacked (when the sun is shining).
No I don’t support Australia. Doesn’t stop me enjoying a world class batsman scoring against England.

I think you are wrong about Bess being selected ahead of Moeen due to the latter not being fit. Michael Vaughan was pretty scathing at the time; Moeen was fit, available for selection and hadn’t been ill with Covid. He’d tested positive and isolated, not been ill. Under England’s rotation policy, he was only there for the first two tests and, by leaving him out and selecting Bess, they once again sent him confused message.

I also think you’re wrong about England not having a spinner who can take wickets on a flat pitch. Moeen Ali can and has. If only England had shown some clarity of thought over what they wanted from him over the years. By the way, his last Ashes series in Australia, he bowled with an injured finger. Hardly surprising he didn’t do well.

As for an all seem attack, it’s ridiculous. But in not selecting Leach, England demonstrated that they don’t think he’s a front line bowler. If he was, he’d be an automatic name on the team sheet.
 
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No I don’t support Australia. Doesn’t stop me enjoying a world class batsman scoring against England.

I think you are wrong about Bess being selected ahead of Moeen due to the latter not being fit. Michael Vaughan was pretty scathing at the time; Moeen was fit, available for selection and hadn’t been ill with Covid. He’d tested positive and isolated, not been ill. Under England’s rotation policy, he was only there for the first two tests and, by leaving him out and selecting Bess, they once again sent him confused message.

I also think you’re wrong about England not having a spinner who can take wickets on a flat pitch. Moeen Ali can and has. If only England had shown some clarity of thought over what they wanted from him over the years. By the way, his last Ashes series in Australia, he bowled with an injured finger. Hardly surprising he didn’t do well.

As for an all seem attack, it’s ridiculous. But in not selecting Leach, England demonstrated that they don’t think he’s a front line bowler. If he was, he’d be an automatic name on the team sheet.

My clear recollection is that they felt, after his isolation, Moeen was not available for selection – on fitness grounds – for the first test in India. I will try to find something, to satisfy my own curiosity.

Regarding your advocacy of Ali, I have already checked a summary of the 2019 Ashes series in England (Sporting Life, oddly enough, was the first one which came up):
“ Jack Leach: catapulted into a high-pressure environment after Moeen Ali was dropped, and became a fan favourite for his brilliant supporting role to Stokes’ miracle in Leeds. Finished on a high with four wickets in the final innings of the series but must look to improve his left arm spin.

Wickets & runs conceded: 12/310
Best 4/49
Average: 25.83

Moeen Ali: dropped after a poor show in the series opener, during which he made four runs in two innings and failed to make the most of a turning Edgbaston pitch.“

How was his finger that time ?
 
No I don’t support Australia. Doesn’t stop me enjoying a world class batsman scoring against England.

I think you are wrong about Bess being selected ahead of Moeen due to the latter not being fit. Michael Vaughan was pretty scathing at the time; Moeen was fit, available for selection and hadn’t been ill with Covid. He’d tested positive and isolated, not been ill. Under England’s rotation policy, he was only there for the first two tests and, by leaving him out and selecting Bess, they once again sent him confused message.

I also think you’re wrong about England not having a spinner who can take wickets on a flat pitch. Moeen Ali can and has. If only England had shown some clarity of thought over what they wanted from him over the years. By the way, his last Ashes series in Australia, he bowled with an injured finger. Hardly surprising he didn’t do well.

As for an all seem attack, it’s ridiculous. But in not selecting Leach, England demonstrated that they don’t think he’s a front line bowler. If he was, he’d be an automatic name on the team sheet.

Reference your second paragraph: “Moeen was fit, available for selection and hadn’t been ill with Covid. He tested positive and isolated, not being ill“.

Alas, I do not have the facility to attach documents, but the Hindustan Times on February 1st this year headlines thus:

“I’ve never experienced that sort of tiredness“: Moeen Ali opens up on battle with COVID-19
Recounting the ordeal to reporters in a virtual press conference, Ali said he would not wish for anyone to go through the same”

Extract from the main story:
“I didn’t sleep much on the plane and felt a bit jetlagged and then in the evening I started to get splitting headaches “, he was quoted as saying by ESPNcricinfo.
“The test was positive. I was not surprised, I had a feeling because once I landed I didn’t feel great.
I had loss of taste for a day or so, splitting headaches for three days, my body was very sore sore and the fatigue was… I’ve never experienced that sort of tiredness before in my life…“

Google can be your friend – if you let it, Bob!
 
Reference your second paragraph: “Moeen was fit, available for selection and hadn’t been ill with Covid. He tested positive and isolated, not being ill“.

Alas, I do not have the facility to attach documents, but the Hindustan Times on February 1st this year headlines thus:

“I’ve never experienced that sort of tiredness“: Moeen Ali opens up on battle with COVID-19
Recounting the ordeal to reporters in a virtual press conference, Ali said he would not wish for anyone to go through the same”

Extract from the main story:
“I didn’t sleep much on the plane and felt a bit jetlagged and then in the evening I started to get splitting headaches “, he was quoted as saying by ESPNcricinfo.
“The test was positive. I was not surprised, I had a feeling because once I landed I didn’t feel great.
I had loss of taste for a day or so, splitting headaches for three days, my body was very sore sore and the fatigue was… I’ve never experienced that sort of tiredness before in my life…“

Google can be your friend – if you let it, Bob!
Those quotes from the interview he did as he came out of isolation and was confirmed as being available for the first test. An interview which was partly about persuading people of his religion to get vaccinated.

Here’s the BBC report of that interview which specifically says he was available for selection.

He actually cleared isolation and entered England’s bubble before the second test in Sri Lanka. Here’s a Cricbuzz article about him rejoining the team, which also discusses Leach and Bess’ lack of form


It baffles me why England didn’t get Moeen back into the test side at the earliest opportunity, which actually could have been in Sri Lanka. The reason given was “lack of match practice”, but in that he was no different to any other player.
 
Those quotes from the interview he did as he came out of isolation and was confirmed as being available for the first test. An interview which was partly about persuading people of his religion to get vaccinated.

Here’s the BBC report of that interview which specifically says he was available for selection.

He actually cleared isolation and entered England’s bubble before the second test in Sri Lanka. Here’s a Cricbuzz article about him rejoining the team, which also discusses Leach and Bess’ lack of form


It baffles me why England didn’t get Moeen back into the test side at the earliest opportunity, which actually could have been in Sri Lanka. The reason given was “lack of match practice”, but in that he was no different to any other player.

Maybe they didn’t want to rush him back because his last test match had been the one against the Australians in Birmingham, which saw him dropped (see above), after which he made himself unavailable for test cricket for a period.
Am not suggesting he is as precious as Boycott, but some tendencies there.

Also Bess and Leach shared 22 wickets over two test matches in Sri Lanka – smart selection does not ‘reward’ that with being dropped for a choosy alternative.
 
Those quotes from the interview he did as he came out of isolation and was confirmed as being available for the first test. An interview which was partly about persuading people of his religion to get vaccinated.

Here’s the BBC report of that interview which specifically says he was available for selection.

He actually cleared isolation and entered England’s bubble before the second test in Sri Lanka. Here’s a Cricbuzz article about him rejoining the team, which also discusses Leach and Bess’ lack of form


It baffles me why England didn’t get Moeen back into the test side at the earliest opportunity, which actually could have been in Sri Lanka. The reason given was “lack of match practice”, but in that he was no different to any other player.

Just re-read your final paragraph.
It seems you will not be told, and are now misquoting about the second test in Galle.
Suggest you read the final sentence of the second paragraph in the Cricbuzz article again.
 
Just re-read your final paragraph.
It seems you will not be told, and are now misquoting about the second test in Galle.
Suggest you read the final sentence of the second paragraph in the Cricbuzz article again.
I don’t come on here to be “told”, I come on here to debate. Kindly be a little less ignorant.

I’m not misquoting anything. Moeen was scheduled to play in Sri Lanka and the first two tests in India. He missed the first test in Sri Lanka isolated with Covid and returned to the squad before the second test. He was fit and available for the first test in India, something which you have repeatedly denied. He wasn’t selected and that had nothing to do with Covid. Instead England selected Bess, who can’t bowl an over without at least one full toss.

When Bess failed to improve, England selected Moeen for the second test, where he bowled better than Leach and way better than Bess ever has. So they asked him to stay on beyond his initial agreed commitment. He told them no and went home. Hardly surprising really.

Meanwhile, Leach is not and never will be a front line spinner. Bess remains unselectable.
 
I don’t come on here to be “told”, I come on here to debate. Kindly be a little less ignorant.

I’m not misquoting anything. Moeen was scheduled to play in Sri Lanka and the first two tests in India. He missed the first test in Sri Lanka isolated with Covid and returned to the squad before the second test. He was fit and available for the first test in India, something which you have repeatedly denied. He wasn’t selected and that had nothing to do with Covid. Instead England selected Bess, who can’t bowl an over without at least one full toss.

When Bess failed to improve, England selected Moeen for the second test, where he bowled better than Leach and way better than Bess ever has. So they asked him to stay on beyond his initial agreed commitment. He told them no and went home. Hardly surprising really.

Meanwhile, Leach is not and never will be a front line spinner. Bess remains unselectable.
I’d back Mo as the first choice spin bowler for the test team.
 

Fat POM

War Hero
I think you are dancing on the head of a pin, guys. When it comes to spinners, England have been struggling since Swann. Both Bess and Moeen can get taken apart and have great spells. I don't know what is coming down the line either.
As has been stated above great subject for debate and has been for decades.
The unicorn, cold fusion and the great English spinner.
 
I think you are dancing on the head of a pin, guys. When it comes to spinners, England have been struggling since Swann. Both Bess and Moeen can get taken apart and have great spells. I don't know what is coming down the line either.
As has been stated above great subject for debate and has been for decades.
The unicorn, cold fusion and the great English spinner.
Mo is a very handy batsmen also, he also has some very impressive wickets.
 
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