The UK funded torture and rape chambers in Iraq.

#1
So instead of Saddam's 'chambers' Iraqis enjoy 'democratic chambers'.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4645733.stm

Since the end of the Iraq war the MoD has spent £27m on aid to the Iraqi police for guns, ammunition, vehicles and body armour.
Good money I should say.

The Observer said it had evidence that suspects had been subject to burning, strangulation, sexual abuse, hanging by the arms, the breaking of limbs and - in one case - the use of an electric drill for a knee-capping.
Maybe they are these nasty 'insurgents'?

It alleged there was a secret network of "ghost" detention centres, and that torture had even gone on within the Ministry of the Interior itself.
Those who were detained should be happy. They are tortured and raped not by henchmen of Saddam but by fierce supporters of democracy.
 
#2
Another lefty story there sergi

We all know the iraq prisoners arent tortured like the papers make out, but i would like to torture the Journo's who make this crap up.

Journo's get the true effect of being tortured , pay me a lot of loot, or better yet i will do it for nowt! just PM me for details!
 
#3
Grow up. Vladimire may be the rule in your country but we know the difference between right and wrong in ours. Please play a new record before we fall asleep..........

Edited for shite spelling.
 
#4
From what little I ve seen of the ips given half a chance I think torture
would be used .It was routinely used before liberation The police is drawn
from a population who belives thats how the police should work .And the insurgents rountinely murder police from the moment they try to sign up
so if they get hold of a insurgent the chance to extract info or payback is
understandable if wrong .Poor pay and a culture of corruption where bribes to release prisoners is considred normal as well dosent help .
Add dodgy us agencies who want results and dont care how they come by them wont help the development of a cvil police force .
 
#5
*reads article and has a road to Damascus like event*
Oh my how could I have been so blinkered! My entire life has been a sham I am so ashamed! You have shown me the truth!!

That article...so succinct....so poignant....so much wood pulp.....


Tovarishch,

For a bloke that basically states we in the West get sucked in by media propaganda - and should not - you get sucked in a lot by anti-West media propaganda. Considering the article is predominantly about the concern the MOD is showing regarding Iraqi paramilitary commandos ending up with aid intended for the Iraqi police -

But the Observer said aid had ended up in the hands of commandos operating out of Iraq's Ministry of the interior.
(see I can selectively quote as well you schlemiel) - I do not see where it says "MOD TORTURE FUND" or even "MOD ACTIVELY SUPPORTING INSURGENT TORTURE IN IRAQ".

I would have said go back to Chernobyl but apparently you are already in residence there.
 
#7
Dear Mizkrissi!

I very much appresiate your attention, moreover with full respect I regard your analysis as very valuable. Indeed MoD was really upsat by this shameless misuse of taxpayers money. One can expect that in this situation the funding would be at least posponed until the end of investigation and clear statement of Iraqi government that practice of torture would be unconditionally stopped.

As to the title of my thread then I hope you agree that the article gives sufficient ground to speak about 'rape and torture chambers'. And question were they funded by the UK has an obvious answer.

You say that my quotes are selective. First of all, direct reference gives possibility for anybody to read full text. As to reaction of MoD, then it is predictable. Could we expect anything else? Can you imagine that MoD would say that it fully supports methods of Iraqi police and special servies? I can't. So quote kindly mentioned by you bears zero information.

Regards!
 
#8
Tovarishch,

Do not try being some sort of a fawning creep with fake attempts at flattery. I despise that more than your usual waffle.

An inquiry by whom? The British Government? The Iraqi? Perhaps the Ministry of the Interior might decide to put its hand up and say "ooops yeah sorry my bad". If the funding has already been given and spent I am not exactly sure how the MoD is expected to get it back off them let alone stop it being used till an inquiry finishes. If an inquiry that actually did any good could be convened.

If my quote "bears zero information" (funny came from same article you quoted) I will use one of your quotes then (or will me using it magically invalidate it?)

Since the end of the Iraq war the MoD has spent £27m on aid to the Iraqi police for guns, ammunition, vehicles and body armour.
Considering the money, so the article states, was spent on buying equipment for the Iraqi police force I do not see how they can just say "ummmm sorry give it back now please" without the Iraqis saying "make us" and causing further problems in an already destabilised situation. To postpone further funds for legitimate purchases and the training that has gone with it would also be less than helpful as it is Coalition troops in there doing the training. It would be putting them in more danger by cutting off funding for equipment as whom are the insurgent groups using for targets. This would probably make some tree huggers happy but does not stop siphoning of funds/equipment to unintended militia type groups. Now that this issue has come up more accountability or supervision of where the funds/equipment ends up might be more effective in preventing reoccurences.

No I do not agree. Your thread title is sensationalist and worthy only of contempt and the gutter media. The tenuous link that the "fierce supporters of democracy" are the only ones whom are committing these alleged acts and that Iraqis themselves have no ability to go "woohooo payback time" smacks of an attempt to yet again West bash and also is quite patronising towards Iraqis. The MoD has publicly stated it has raised the issue with the Iraqi government. What were they supposed to do other than that? Go in and shoot a few individuals as a show of strength? Your insinuations, that the UK deliberately funded these groups, lack finesse and at times coherence, but I feel that is more due to other conditions than this matter alone.

The article in its entirety is much more interesting for what it does not say as for what it does. I would be interested in seeing the evidence the Observer has (I am sure others would be as well) and asking if prior to funding being given did anyone have a little think "I wonder if these funds might get into the wrong hands if we do not monitor it properly?"

So to use your charming little word construct "quote kindly".
 
#9
Sorry chap, the UK has not funded "secret" tortue chambers, and indeed, has been trying to teach the fledgling security forces proper methods of investigation and crime detection/prevention. The equipment provided has been for legitimate purposes - do you honestly think that we could, with any of our currently democratically elected parties in power, fund equipment of that nature?

Methinks this is another one of those "non-stories", someone in the BBC has decided to put 2 and 2 together, and has got 9.0 on the richter scale of bollocks.

More like the Iraqis themselves have set up their own little "investigation" chambers - after all, violence has been institutionalised in their culture for years. As for torture equipment, you can go to any S&M catalogue and fill your boots. DHL do deliver worldwide!
 
#11
Dear mizkrissi!

Thank you for this interesting message (very reasonable indeed).

Few remarks.

If we hear that somebody got birth then further phrase 'she is a woman' bears zero information. So my comment about 'zero information' means:

{taking into account high moral principles of MoD its reaction is absolutely predictable.}

An inquiry by whom? By both, it should be on British and on Iraqi side. Moreover, Iraqi side should make clear and unconditional statement on this matter. Without it what would be a difference between Saddam and current regime?

I agree that it is impossible to return the money but all possible measures should be made to prevent tortures in Iraqi jails. I agree with you that some spendings should not be stopped immediately.

As to the title then really I meant: "It appears that the UK in fact funded 'rape and torture chambers'"

I believed that there was no room for misunderstanding.

"fierce supporters of democracy"? I suppose that some supporters of democracy in Iraq can be called as fierce. Why not?

Have I said that the UK deliberately funded these groups? No I haven't.

Of course I absolutely agree with you. Indeed it would be interested to see the evidence the Observer has.

Kind regards!
 
#12
Of course the Iraqi police use torture - they're up against a bunch of people who regularly blow them up and cut their heads off. We don't fund it directly I'm sure. Frankly I think one of the reasons the UK area is relatively quiet is that we let the locals get on with it instead of forcing an alien set of values down their throats like the US.

But it's not pretty, civil wars never are.
 
#13
Hi!

Spanner said:
Sorry chap, the UK has not funded "secret" tortue chambers, and indeed, has been trying to teach the fledgling security forces proper methods of investigation...
Do you mean case of Baha Mousa? I doubt that it is a good example.

The equipment provided has been for legitimate purposes - do you honestly think that we could, with any of our currently democratically elected parties in power, fund equipment of that nature?
Why not? If there are any contradictions between 'business' and 'democracy' then rather 'democracy' closes eyes. I suppose that 'democratically elected parties' use to speak about democratic values in British parliament.

http://www.publications.parliament....cm050518/debtext/50518-10.htm#50518-10_spnew1

Sir Menzies Campbell:...There are reports that the United States and the United Kingdom receive information from the Uzbekistan Government that may have been obtained by torture. What do our Government say to those allegations?

Why, in the past five years, have our Government approved arms export licences to Uzbekistan for categories including

"military, security and paramilitary goods and arms"?

Exactly what sort of equipment has been exported? If we are serious about arms exports, we should also be serious about their transparency.

Did those exports conform to criterion 2 of the "Consolidated EU and National Arms Export Licensing Criteria", which the Foreign Office publishes? It provides that licences should not be issued when there is a

"clear risk that the proposed export might be used for internal repression".

What the devil is taking place in Uzbekistan now if it is not internal repression?
I see questions but where are answers? Why list of arms export to Uzbekistan is so secret that even MPs are unaware about its content?
 

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