The UK/European migrant problem

Gout Man

LE
Book Reviewer
Nelson never had this problem with the Frenchies, nether did Horatio Hornblower.
There’s a Hitler Parody in this story.
“THESE IMMIGRANTS ARE INVADING BRITAIN AT WILL AND YET WE FAILED WHY”?
“Those of you who think we could have done what these poor refugees from Africa and beyond can do in little rubber boats leave now”.
 

WALT

LE
That is the thing about some who are 'Dual Nationals' they have no real loyalty or love, for a place. It's all about self.

Steady on, now. I am one of these dual nationals. British/German. I have given my oath of loyalty to HM the Queen and as far as I am aware that hasn't been rescinded.
I have also been accepted as a full citizen of Germany (admittedly prompted by Brexit, as I would have been happy living here as a British citizen otherwise) so I feel that I also owe something to my adopted country for accepting me as I am.
I wish no ill to either country, and sincerely hope that the two do not enter into conflict of any kind. Otherwise, I'm buggered.
 
Steady on, now. I am one of these dual nationals. British/German. I have given my oath of loyalty to HM the Queen and as far as I am aware that hasn't been rescinded.
I have also been accepted as a full citizen of Germany (admittedly prompted by Brexit, as I would have been happy living here as a British citizen otherwise) so I feel that I also owe something to my adopted country for accepting me as I am.
I wish no ill to either country, and sincerely hope that the two do not enter into conflict of any kind. Otherwise, I'm buggered.

Please accept my apology to you, I should have used the word 'some' rather than a broad brush generalisation of 'they'. I think though you understand the point I was making, but in this instance not particularly well.

There is a sad reality that the western society broadly, not just the UK is under great strain at this time, from the mass migrant situation both legal and illegal. Both in Europe and the United States resources are becoming strained and thus conflicts are likely to arise that will focus tribal differences.

The left across Europe and the US be they naive useful idiots or malicious activists, think that open borders have no cost to stable society, they are wrong. Worse they will be the ones who blame everyone and everything other than themselves when the western society that many generations across Europe and the US have worked so hard to maintain, falls on it's arrse.

Open borders or a welfare state you cannot have both. A Rule of law high trust society or the mob.
 

WALT

LE
Please accept my apology to you, I should have used the word 'some' rather than a broad brush generalisation of 'they'.

Apology quite unnecessary. You did use the word "some." I just reacted to the suggestion that those of us with dual nationalities have no integrity. Having very recently (ie. last year) become a member of such a club I am a little sensitive. We have to tread a very fine line between the two countries and the likes of Photex and Redshift and their rather blasé approach to dual nationality are not entirely helpful.
 
. . . . The left across Europe and the US be they naive useful idiots or malicious activists, think that open borders have no cost to stable society, they are wrong. Worse they will be the ones who blame everyone and everything other than themselves when the western society that many generations across Europe and the US have worked so hard to maintain, falls on it's arrse.

Open borders or a welfare state you cannot have both. A Rule of law high trust society or the mob.

I totally agree with your first two paragraphs . . . so will not give your post a DISAGREE !!

BUT . . . I beleive the conclusion , is wrong - that you have drawn - in the third paragraph . . .

" . . . . The left across Europe and the US be they naive useful idiots or malicious activists, think that open borders have no cost to stable society, they are wrong. Worse they will be the ones who blame everyone and everything other than themselves when the western society that many generations across Europe and the US have worked so hard to maintain, falls on it's arrse".

It is suggested that the . . . OBJECTIVE of the left . . the naive useful idiots and malicious activists, IS TO USE open borders . . . TO DESTROY the western society . . . that many generations across Europe and the US have worked so hard to (establish and), maintain !!
 
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I wish no ill to either country, and sincerely hope that the two do not enter into conflict of any kind. Otherwise, I'm buggered.
Thats no problem.

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I totally agree with your first two paragraphs . . . so will not give your post a DISAGREE !!

BUT . . . I beleive the conclusion , is wrong - that you have drawn - in the third paragraph . . .

" . . . . The left across Europe and the US be they naive useful idiots or malicious activists, think that open borders have no cost to stable society, they are wrong. Worse they will be the ones who blame everyone and everything other than themselves when the western society that many generations across Europe and the US have worked so hard to maintain, falls on it's arrse".

It is suggested that the . . . OBJECTIVE of the left . . the naive useful idiots and malicious activists, IS TO USE open borders . . . TO DESTROY the western society . . . that many generations across Europe and the US have worked so hard to (establish and), maintain !!
I understand, your critique of my interpretation. That said have no doubt that I also believe there are some who are exploiting the inherent weakness's of being a 'Classical Western Liberal Democracies'. Both from within and externally across both the US and Europe, and have said as much many times over the last decade in this thread and other's.

While it is very difficult too do, I try to find some hope that the "Rubicon" has not been crossed, and the alleged 'intelligent' grown ups in power, find a spine before it is to late. That they then not only start to fix the last 40 odd years they have spent 'breaking-shit', but be open and public about it.

I believe the voting public can and should understand how society got to this place, none have clean hands when it comes to "how did it come to this"

That said I also try, and while it is increasingly becoming harder. Too attribute stupidity and incompetence rather more than malice to the fact that we are at best close to the "Rubicon", and they just cannot see the sad logical conclusion, too their inactions.

It may be a lost but I have to keep faith and bet on enough of us with the wit, skills and rolls of black nasty to keep the wheels on the wagon, in being able to make a difference and or rebuild.
 
I understand, your critique of my interpretation. That said have no doubt that I also believe there are some who are exploiting the inherent weakness's of being a 'Classical Western Liberal Democracies'. Both from within and externally across both the US and Europe, and have said as much many times over the last decade in this thread and other's.

While it is very difficult too do, I try to find some hope that the "Rubicon" has not been crossed, and the alleged 'intelligent' grown ups in power, find a spine before it is to late. That they then not only start to fix the last 40 odd years they have spent 'breaking-shit', but be open and public about it.

I believe the voting public can and should understand how society got to this place, none have clean hands when it comes to "how did it come to this"

That said I also try, and while it is increasingly becoming harder. Too attribute stupidity and incompetence rather more than malice to the fact that we are at best close to the "Rubicon", and they just cannot see the sad logical conclusion, too their inactions.

It may be a lost but I have to keep faith and bet on enough of us with the wit, skills and rolls of black nasty to keep the wheels on the wagon, in being able to make a difference and or rebuild.
Unfortunately, I do not share your optimism, when you . . . "try to find some hope that . . . the alleged 'intelligent' grown-ups in power, find a spine before it is too late" :( !!

It is depressing to think that a lot of the "grown-ups" to which you refer, were described on another thread, by @FORMER_FYRDMAN . . . .

POST- BREXIT SUBVERSION

The battle may be won but the war continues. Large chunks of the Establishment were seriously embarrassed and given a very public lesson in the limits of their power. That's not something they've forgiven, they haven't made peace with the result and they are looking to get even - again, regardless of the wider cost to the country.

Look at the current support for the complete revision and distortion of this country's history, together with the associated angst, and Remain hardliners in the Media, the Arts and Academia are extremely well represented, not least because it's a chance to attack things that many Brexiteers value.

I have absolutely no quarrel with anyone who accepted the referendum outcome when it was known, which is just as well or I'd lose half my friends and be divorced, but I have no hesitation in condemning those who didn't and who used every underhand tactic in the book to try to get their way for the next three years.

These people haven't accepted the result and never will. They've simply been left with a de facto situation after exhausting their options. That's the reality and I'm not going to pretend that these hardliners have now seen the light and are potential allies or subscribe to the fiction that they were all good sports in the end; they haven't, they're not, they weren't and they bear watching because, if they can attempt to subvert a legitimate public choice once, they are certainly capable of doing it again and their behaviour displays a complete contempt for the democratic process.

If they now find it acceptable to stoke racial tensions and provoke a cultural civil war that's probably not surprising but it makes them doubly dangerous and they should be called out at every opportunity for being the creatures they undoubtedly are.


post #23018.
 
Unfortunately, I do not share your optimism, when you . . . "try to find some hope that . . . the alleged 'intelligent' grown-ups in power, find a spine before it is too late" :( !!

It is depressing to think that a lot of the "grown-ups" to which you refer, were described on another thread, by @FORMER_FYRDMAN . . . .

POST- BREXIT SUBVERSION

The battle may be won but the war continues. Large chunks of the Establishment were seriously embarrassed and given a very public lesson in the limits of their power. That's not something they've forgiven, they haven't made peace with the result and they are looking to get even - again, regardless of the wider cost to the country.

Look at the current support for the complete revision and distortion of this country's history, together with the associated angst, and Remain hardliners in the Media, the Arts and Academia are extremely well represented, not least because it's a chance to attack things that many Brexiteers value.

I have absolutely no quarrel with anyone who accepted the referendum outcome when it was known, which is just as well or I'd lose half my friends and be divorced, but I have no hesitation in condemning those who didn't and who used every underhand tactic in the book to try to get their way for the next three years.

These people haven't accepted the result and never will. They've simply been left with a de facto situation after exhausting their options. That's the reality and I'm not going to pretend that these hardliners have now seen the light and are potential allies or subscribe to the fiction that they were all good sports in the end; they haven't, they're not, they weren't and they bear watching because, if they can attempt to subvert a legitimate public choice once, they are certainly capable of doing it again and their behaviour displays a complete contempt for the democratic process.

If they now find it acceptable to stoke racial tensions and provoke a cultural civil war that's probably not surprising but it makes them doubly dangerous and they should be called out at every opportunity for being the creatures they undoubtedly are.


post #23018.
I can accept some pure academic types if they're of the Professor of anatomy types as they don't really have a great deal of wiggle room, but as for the media and arts types...

Dance monkey, dance, you're here for our entertainment.
 
I totally agree with your first two paragraphs . . . so will not give your post a DISAGREE !!

BUT . . . I beleive the conclusion , is wrong - that you have drawn - in the third paragraph . . .

" . . . . The left across Europe and the US be they naive useful idiots or malicious activists, think that open borders have no cost to stable society, they are wrong. Worse they will be the ones who blame everyone and everything other than themselves when the western society that many generations across Europe and the US have worked so hard to maintain, falls on it's arrse".

It is suggested that the . . . OBJECTIVE of the left . . the naive useful idiots and malicious activists, IS TO USE open borders . . . TO DESTROY the western society . . . that many generations across Europe and the US have worked so hard to (establish and), maintain !!
Actually given the History of the Evolution of the EU it is correct. There are a number of strands to this. Firstly the UN failing to apply the principles of its founding namely that governments of all countries are responsible for tgE well fare of their people.
Secondly, the EU should have ensured that IT controlled the vital functions not left it to ms comply with directives.
Thirdly it should have limited itself to those countries which would have been like minded in these matters.

I consider that the EU has made rods for it’s own back not least because it forced Brexit by failure to adapt. You cannot have undertakings to ensure the wellbeing of peoples within borders at loggerheads which EU humanitarian aspirations which are not really it’s remit. Because not even the HRA has not kept pace in LGBT issues as evidenced by the failures of Poland and Hungary to comply. it is all very well blaming Muslims for this POV when the RC church will not even countenance these things.
 
Unfortunately, I do not share your optimism, when you . . . "try to find some hope that . . . the alleged 'intelligent' grown-ups in power, find a spine before it is too late" :( !!

It is depressing to think that a lot of the "grown-ups" to which you refer, were described on another thread, by @FORMER_FYRDMAN . . . .

post #23018.

The war is perhaps, never won and it is a constant battle to maintain a working and decent society, I understand your dismissal of my perhaps vain optimism.

Make no mistake the present cluster fcuk does make me angry, and that I can only see that there are only two likely outcomes. Across the many differing posters in this thread and other threads that consider politics and economics there are many who also consider, in one way or another that the the present societal cluster fcuk is a clear and present danger, and wish it was not so.

All we can do at this stage is make our voices heard, prepare for the worst and hope to be wrong. The sad fact is the human race is very good at breaking things, despite being more educated than at any other time in our history particularly when a societal model loses focus on maintenance. Perhaps its a perpetual sad truth that all society's reach a point where they dramatically fail, it is only the timescale that differs.

I oft think of the quote from one of one of G. Michael Hopf's, book Those Who Remain, while I have not read any of his books, it strikes me as a truism of the circular nature of humanities history... and was ever thus.

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.”

 
Despite missing out on the title last year, @PhotEx is making a strong shout for Site Penis Of The Year.

It's an early surge, and will take some hard graft to maintain this lead, but on the current form shown on this thread I wouldn't bet against the chopper being crowned SPOTY.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
I assume you keep quoting German posting, pictures of Germans and little Hitler memes as you've arrived at the Troll Terminus and have no where to go but to imply everyone is a Nazi?

You're not even a very good troll are you?

nope, just mildly amused at the contortions the Herren are going through to expound their racist xenophobic views while constrained by the site rules.
 

PhotEx

On ROPS
On ROPs
Despite missing out on the title last year, @PhotEx is making a strong shout for Site Penis Of The Year.

It's an early surge, and will take some hard graft to maintain this lead, but on the current form shown on this thread I wouldn't bet against the chopper being crowned SPOTY.

I wasn't in the running last year. ;-)
 

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