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The UK/European migrant problem

It only became our problem when we got them. Otherwise it was a French Problem and go back a few years that's exactly what I've always said.

Er actually they are. Schengen is to do with movement of people and each MS has it's own interpretation of when it will allow Asylum. If Asylum is not Granted and the person is not deported from the EU M/S that person becomes an illegal who has passed/bypassed Schengen controls and that is a failure of Schengen. The EU never had the means to sort the Problem is the point because the MS included in it never did. There is no escaping that point, it's fundamental. Lisbon and the EU directorate for immigration never grasped that nettle post 2008. I kept hammering on about Harmonisation, that's what I meant.

Of course Free movement does not apply to illegals, one has to LEGALLY in the EU to qualify but that doesn't mean that the EU MSs have a handle on it. Just because you're given a document to quit that country doesn't mean they will leave leave the EU...... Not Unless they are physically evicted- that's the point of enforcement. FGS
One of the big problems was all the illegals flooding into Itatly by boat. They didn't want to stay in Italy but wanted to go to the UK. Because of the Schengen open border the Italiens directed them to the French border, even giving them train tickets in some cases. The French : 'oh you want to go to England, its that way' pointing to Calais. With NGO's setting up transit centre's to aid them and People smugglers (Kurds and Albanians) having a profitable buisness smuggling them across the channel via the back of lorries it the French were quite happy as it was a British problem.

When the British put political pressure on the French it became difficult to cross the channel in the back of lorries. However the pull factor was still there with illegals still flooding in aided by NGO's and the people smugglers still coining it. You then had a build up not only in France in the Channel ports but also in Paris itself. France closed its border with Italy and the illegals built up there as they were still flooding in by boat.

Before the EU and open borders if illegals arrived in Italy and Greece it would be for them to deal with and no concern of the rest of Europe. However after Mutti's 2015 escapade, it all became about 'burden sharing.' Poland and Hungary told Merkel to 'do one,' You now have the situation where those two countries are veto-ing the whole of the EU budget as a reprisal for actions taken against them.

The whole situation is destabilising Europe with the EU establishment in a state of drift and inertia and right wing parties getting stronger every day. On top of that we have a world wide pandemic and are on the verge of economic collapse. I hate to mention Godwin and the N word but Europe has been here before in recent living memory.

At a minimun Europe needs to stop these NGO's aiding and abetting the situation, and clamp down on the people smugglers. In respect of the people coming across in small boats how hard is it to clamp down on them. Even Inspector Clouseau could solve it. They are coming across mainly in small and medium size inflatables which the people smugglers are buying from Boat chandlers on the French Coast who must be making a tidy profit. How hard is it for French Plod to track these venues down, prosecute them and put them out of buisnesses if convicted as a warning to the others. T

Then target the people smuggling gangs. They must be making a fortune which must be laundered somehow. If the smugglers can be identified (how hard is that) and are in France legally then follow the money. At the end of the day if all else fails, just go for the 'Al Capone' option and hit them for unpaid taxes. Seize any assets if they don't pay.

At any rate Europe is drinking in the last chance saloon it's going to have to take drastic action sooner or later.
 
I responded to your earlier post, in the context of this thread title "The UK European migrant problem", and the general consensus that has developed amongst those posting on the thread, that the UK/Border Force has been ineffective in addressing the problem. Inefficiencies that have been excused by some "do-gooders".

The repercussions of the UK/Border Force inefficiencies, are NOT short term.

The long term repercussions of the UK/Border Force inefficiencies, will (of course) stretch to infinity.

The oft repeated mantra is that enforcement needs manpower. The problem is it's a short term issue and noone is going to raise extra staff for a temporary issue, unless the need arises. That's the same in the Services. However they do say revenge is best served cold and there may be many a do gooder who might wind up in court in future for their actions in circumventing the Laws. Another dictum has to do with intentions and paving, another with unintended consequences. These will all come home to roost . . . .

It is not understood why you would (now) suggest that the difficulties with regard to the competence of Border Force, are related to Border Force staff numbers, and recruiting ?!

Border Force clearly have more than enough staff (some might suggest TOO MANY staff), to "meet & greet" every bloody inflatable that leaves France heading for the UK :( .
 
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One of the big problems was all the illegals flooding into Itatly by boat. They didn't want to stay in Italy but wanted to go to the UK. Because of the Schengen open border the Italiens directed them to the French border, even giving them train tickets in some cases. The French : 'oh you want to go to England, its that way' pointing to Calais. With NGO's setting up transit centre's to aid them and People smugglers (Kurds and Albanians) having a profitable buisness smuggling them across the channel via the back of lorries it the French were quite happy as it was a British problem.

When the British put political pressure on the French it became difficult to cross the channel in the back of lorries. However the pull factor was still there with illegals still flooding in aided by NGO's and the people smugglers still coining it. You then had a build up not only in France in the Channel ports but also in Paris itself. France closed its border with Italy and the illegals built up there as they were still flooding in by boat.

Before the EU and open borders if illegals arrived in Italy and Greece it would be for them to deal with and no concern of the rest of Europe. However after Mutti's 2015 escapade, it all became about 'burden sharing.' Poland and Hungary told Merkel to 'do one,' You now have the situation where those two countries are veto-ing the whole of the EU budget as a reprisal for actions taken against them.

The whole situation is destabilising Europe with the EU establishment in a state of drift and inertia and right wing parties getting stronger every day. On top of that we have a world wide pandemic and are on the verge of economic collapse. I hate to mention Godwin and the N word but Europe has been here before in recent living memory.

At a minimun Europe needs to stop these NGO's aiding and abetting the situation, and clamp down on the people smugglers. In respect of the people coming across in small boats how hard is it to clamp down on them. Even Inspector Clouseau could solve it. They are coming across mainly in small and medium size inflatables which the people smugglers are buying from Boat chandlers on the French Coast who must be making a tidy profit. How hard is it for French Plod to track these venues down, prosecute them and put them out of buisnesses if convicted as a warning to the others. T

Then target the people smuggling gangs. They must be making a fortune which must be laundered somehow. If the smugglers can be identified (how hard is that) and are in France legally then follow the money. At the end of the day if all else fails, just go for the 'Al Capone' option and hit them for unpaid taxes. Seize any assets if they don't pay.

At any rate Europe is drinking in the last chance saloon it's going to have to take drastic action sooner or later.
Wouldn’t disagree. However for the French there is one fundamental flaw in the process. They can issue Schengen Visas applicable anywhere in the Schengen area. We are not in Schengen. They cannot therefore issue leave to remain. The biggest bugbear in my time was the EU visa and EU visa looked very similar. A Brief look will confuse. HM will be able to attest to that. So we would be looking for a Schengen Visa and a U.K. one. Obviously MS do not require a Schengen or UK visa. So you see in tacitly aiding illegals to come to the U.K. they were actually breaking EU law and by retaining illegals and not returning them to the previous MS not only breaching EU rules, they were accepting responsibility for every single person who remained on French soil. What the French have perpetrated on this country is really extortion.
 
I responded to your earlier post, in the context of this thread title "The UK European migrant problem", and the general consensus that has developed amongst those posting on the thread, that the UK/Border Force has been ineffective in addressing the problem. Inefficiencies that have been excused by some "do-gooders".

The repercussions of the UK/Border Force inefficiencies, are NOT short term.

The long term repercussions of the UK/Border Force inefficiencies, will (of course) stretch to infinity.



It is not understood why you would (now) suggest that the difficulties with regard to the competence of Border Force, are related to Border Force staff numbers, and recruiting ?!

Border Force clearly have more than enough staff (some might suggest TOO MANY staff), to "meet & greet" every bloody inflatable that leaves France heading for the UK :( .
Tony Blair and Brown axed about 40k staff from Customs and immigration in the mergers between 05 and 08. UKBA nominally had about25 k staff. That hasn’t changed much. The point I was trying to make was that in a forces scenario, we never apply enough staff to do the job. We cope. The staff we inherited included HQ and overseas postings to embassies. The inefficiencies are more to do with structural demise/destruction than any overstaffing. There had also been a gradual reduction of local offices, port cover etc, partly due to computerisation in freight. But it’s also a fact of life that this country processes fairly strictly in compliance with HR regulation.
 
Wouldn’t disagree. However for the French there is one fundamental flaw in the process. They can issue Schengen Visas applicable anywhere in the Schengen area.

Leo

The migrants from Sangatte in the late 80's, to the migrants arriving today via Calais and all other points along the Dutch, Belgian and French coastlines, arriving on UK shores do not have visa's. Most of them do not even have passports. ( Deliberately destroyed )

Although the amount of migrants will ebb and flow, some will be interdicted, the above covers a period of at least 30 years, so it cannot, in any way, be described as a short term problem.
 
Leo

The migrants from Sangatte in the late 80's, to the migrants arriving today via Calais and all other points along the Dutch, Belgian and French coastlines, arriving on UK shores do not have visa's. Most of them do not even have passports. ( Deliberately destroyed )

Although the amount of migrants will ebb and flow, some will be interdicted, the above covers a period of at least 30 years, so it cannot, in any way, be described as a short term problem.
I think you will find we are in agreement , the point you made is that Illegals do not come under the remit of Schengen. They do, because the Schengen Agreement is specifically geared to border controls of people. It means that any illegals in Europe are in effect a failure of that policy. That isn’t the short term problem that I meant. Now the question that faces this country is will it face the fact that if we have control of our borders, will they recognise that it requires man power to enforce it, something they ditched getting on for 12 years ago.
They didn’t under the coalition so the clock really started in 2015. In relative terms that is temporary.
 
I think you will find we are in agreement

I will have to agree to disagree

the point you made is that Illegals do not come under the remit of Schengen. They do, because the Schengen Agreement is specifically geared to border controls of people.

The Schengen agreement covers the free movement of citizens of members of Schengen Countries and holders of valid Schengen visa's.

Illegal migrants come under neither of those umbrella's.

I think you might be getting confused with the Dublin Agreement / Regulation which would cover illegal migrants, who should claim asylum / protection in the EU Country that they arrive in, rather than not applying in the hope of getting trafficked across the EU, trafficked onwards to the UK in order to claim / seek asylum on UK soil.
 
I think you might be getting confused with the Dublin Agreement / Regulation which would cover illegal migrants, who should claim asylum / protection in the EU Country that they arrive in, rather than not applying in the hope of getting trafficked across the EU, trafficked onwards to the UK in order to claim / seek asylum on UK soil.
No I'm not, one impinges on the other by definition. Either they have asylum granted under the Dublin status in which case they are legal and can get the necessary visa for that country. But you are making the distinction that these groups don't use illegal means- they do and big time to move family. Visas are a huge hurdle for people to cross, they have to prove they have the means of supporting themselves.

In most cases that's a no hoper. Asylum only applies to the persons directly applying. Now bear with me. If one member has Asylum here, they are strictly forbidden from returning to their country of origin- otherwise the Asylum claim lapses. Moreover any Asylum seeker here loses his / their claim if they in any way breach those conditions and aid others to do so by illegal methods. That's why they came down like a ton of Bricks of the Immigration officers at LHR some years ago.The rules state that the seeker MUST seek in the first safe country they arrive in. It does not follow that once asylum has been granted they can get visas for anywhere
The Schengen agreement covers the free movement of citizens of members of Schengen Countries and holders of valid Schengen visa's.
Er Wrong. Schengen is also responsible for the external borders of the EU and the enforcement of the National/Eu regs on immigration. People get their permit to travel by being of a Schengen state or having a Schengen visa.
 
Er Wrong. Schengen is also responsible for the external borders of the EU and the enforcement of the National/Eu regs on immigration. People get their permit to travel by being of a Schengen state or having a Schengen visa.

Yes, I am aware of that. However all my responses have been in relation to the problem of ( illegal ) migrants coming from EU shores to the UK.

Either they have asylum granted under the Dublin status in which case they are legal and can get the necessary visa for that country. But you are making the distinction that these groups don't use illegal means- they do and big time to move family. Visas are a huge hurdle for people to cross, they have to prove they have the means of supporting themselves.

Everything I have said, in this post and every previous post concerns ( as per the title ) the problem of EU - UK ( illegal ) migration. I could not care less about people who come to the UK with a proper visa.

Dublin Agreement / Schengen Agreement does not cover ( Illegal ) migrants, who are mostly undocumented, coming from the shores of France / Belgium / Holland by clandestine means, whether that be in the back of a lorry, a rickety boat, canoes, swimming or other means.
 
Dublin Agreement / Schengen Agreement does not cover ( Illegal ) migrants, who are mostly undocumented, coming from the shores of France / Belgium / Holland by clandestine means, whether that be in the back of a lorry, a rickety boat, canoes, swimming or other means.
Once again. It doesn’t cover them by default. If the illegals won’t apply in those countries, then the entire system has failed in its entirety . I agree with you on that and this why they are illegal. No agreement covers Illegals de facto.
 
A problem can only be dealt with, if you have the political will and nobody in government really wants to stop migration as it keeps wages low and also divides populations and division is a good thing for control.

The entire system is just an expensive mirage to process not the migrants, but native populations into believing we are doing something. It sort of reminds me of the concept of the free fire zone that wasted millions of dollars firing into positions where no insurgents were operating, but the brass could be sold on and the war profiteers got fresh contracts to manufacture more ammo..
 
Double manslaughter, what would that be? Eighteen years?
No matter what, even the far lefties who hate Nigel Farage with a passion, believe he would have left our two failed cockershell heroes to there fate. He came over as very sympathetic to their immediate plight in the video if not with their intended objective of a seaborne invasion of Britain's shores.
 

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