The Trump Presidency...

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Only seems fair, if the Orange One is comparing himself favourably to Lincoln on what he's done for black Americans.
Doesn't say much for America that the best comparison he can make is to a British Politician over 40 years ago looking at the damage caused by a foreign power, while America stood by and watched really.
 
I would have thought that Don would have known his history by now. "Taking the knee" is an ancient (Remember US is young by comparison to us) salute when knights after a battle would take a knee to bow to their king or queen in an expression of subservience, submission, love, and obedience or a combination of the four . So taking a knee could mean they kneelers are genuflecting to Don. Pass it on. :cool:
 
Apologies for the digression, fascinating as it is to a historian.


Re General Mattis and his comments ( delivered I have no doubt with suppressed fury)

Try turning the world upside down for a moment.

Imagine the reaction if Putin had done what the Orange One has done : putting Airborne Forces on the streets of the capital city.

' Ulyanovsk Guards Air Assault Brigade deployed in Moscow......President warns protester = terrorist '

' Pussy Riot members shot by paratroopers - self-defence says OC'

' Martial Law declared in Russia'
Does Trump really want to deploy a Stryker brigade against demonstrators ? I have a lot of respect for Mattis, but he is not fighting a re-election campaign, so can afford to adopt the moral high ground. Those who operate in the political sphere have always being amused at the naivety of the military.

If the protests get worse then trump is on record as wanting more done. If we have learned anything about trump, its not the actions, but how it looks which count. So looking tough and being talked out of an action, sounds weak to you and me, but doesn't play as badly as it first sounds, to a wider audience, who would like the protests ended.
 
Does Trump really want to deploy a Stryker brigade against demonstrators ? I have a lot of respect for Mattis, but he is not fighting a re-election campaign, so can afford to adopt the moral high ground. Those who operate in the political sphere have always being amused at the naivety of the military.

If the protests get worse then trump is on record as wanting more done. If we have learned anything about trump, its not the actions, but how it looks which count. So looking tough and being talked out of an action, sounds weak to you and me, but doesn't play as badly as it first sounds, to a wider audience, who would like the protests ended.
So, all politicians are allowed to throw away all morality, and laugh at the standards of the military? All politicians are allowed to use their military on their own citizens? This isn't the sort of behaviour rather frowned upon by civilised countries, and seen as the hall mark of a failed State run by a tinpot dictator?

Or is it just Trump who should be allowed to do this, because, well, Trump.

Mattis is widely regarded as the moral and ethical voice of the US military. He tried working for Trump, but now he is explicitly saying that Trump is an existential threat to US society.
That should be a concern, but, well, Trump.
 
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Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
So, all politicians are allowed to throw away all morality, and laugh at the standards of the military? All politicians are allowed to use their military on their own citizens? This isn't the sort of behaviour rather frowned upon by civilised countries, and seen as the hall mark of a failed State run by a tinpot dictator?

Or is it just Trump who should be allowed to do this, because, well, Trump.

Mattis is widely regarded as the moral and ethical voice of the US military. He tried working for Trump, but now he is explicitly saying that Trump is a existential threat to US society.
That should be a concern, but, well, Trump.
It's all very clear. . . If viewed from a Soviet style viewpoint.
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
Oh dear, I appear to have upset somebody who gets hurt when you mention Russia, I wonder why. Tell me then @Emcon Ecomcon do you not think crushing protests with troops, or threatening the same is not a very Soviet thing to do? There's an awful lot of ex Warsaw Pact people who'd disagree. Edit I see you've gone for button bashing instead, says a lot really.
 
So, all politicians are allowed to throw away all morality, and laugh at the standards of the military? All politicians are allowed to use their military on their own citizens? This isn't the sort of behaviour rather frowned upon by civilised countries, and seen as the hall mark of a failed State run by a tinpot dictator?

Or is it just Trump who should be allowed to do this, because, well, Trump.

Mattis is widely regarded as the moral and ethical voice of the US military. He tried working for Trump, but now he is explicitly saying that Trump is a existential threat to US society.
That should be a concern, but, well, Trump.
A commander on a battlefield has one duty, its not to his men, but to see that a mission is completed. Take a Hill, town by a certain time and other peoples lives depend on carrying out that mission.

What is a politicians mission ? its to get re-elected, so your way off kilter, to compare Trump with a dictator, who operates outside the law (Helm should really pay more attention). All I said was Trump has laid his cards on the table and if the secdef or mattis objects and the cards are not played, then the president has done his bit for law and order.

Said before in multiple postings, I don't much care for Trump, but have a great deal of respect for his team and his political games are right out of the 21st century handbook of politics.
 
Oh dear, I appear to have upset somebody who gets hurt when you mention Russia, I wonder why. Tell me then @Emcon Ecomcon do you not think crushing protests with troops, or threatening the same is not a very Soviet thing to do? There's an awful lot of ex Warsaw Pact people who'd disagree. Edit I see you've gone for button bashing instead, says a lot really.
You can't debate and why i gave up on you.
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
A commander on a battlefield has one duty, its not to his men, but to see that a mission is completed. Take a Hill, town by a certain time and other peoples lives depend on carrying out that mission.

What is a politicians mission ? its to get re-elected, so your way off kilter, to compare Trump with a dictator, who operates outside the law (Helm should really pay more attention). All I said was Trump has laid his cards on the table and if the secdef or mattis objects and the cards are not played, then the president has done his bit for law and order.

Said before in multiple postings, I don't much care for Trump, but have a great deal of respect for his team and his political games are right out of the 21st century handbook of politics.
I am paying attention, do go on it's quite fascinating. I want to see how deep the hole you're digging goes, mind answering my question now? I take it you mean by can't debate, raise points I can not defend. A politicians job should be to do the best for the people he was elected by and the country they live in btw.
 
A commander on a battlefield has one duty, its not to his men, but to see that a mission is completed. Take a Hill, town by a certain time and other peoples lives depend on carrying out that mission.

I wholeheartedly disagree; no matter where he/she is located or what the circumstances, a commander always has a duty to their personnel. It may not be their first priority in a particular circumstance, but that obligation comes with command. A commander with no obligation to those under their command is not fit to hold such authority. The way you have stated it, even if an order received could not result in a goal being achieved, the lives of subordinates should be committed to enacting it, because it was part of the mission. How very Red Army 1942.
 
A commander on a battlefield has one duty, its not to his men, but to see that a mission is completed. Take a Hill, town by a certain time and other peoples lives depend on carrying out that mission.

What is a politicians mission ? its to get re-elected, so your way off kilter, to compare Trump with a dictator, who operates outside the law (Helm should really pay more attention). All I said was Trump has layed his cards on the table and if the secdef or mattis objects and the cards are not played, then the president has done his bit for law and order.

Said before in multiple postings, I don't much care for Trump, but have a great deal of respect for his team and his political games are right out of the 21st century handbook of politics.
Trump was elected, (with the help of some Russian friends and a bungling FBI) but that certainly hasn't stopped many other tin pot dictators who have been elected and then felt a pressing need to put troops on the streets and not bother with that democracy nonsense when re election time comes around.
Trump has spent the past 3 years being regularly over turned in Court for exceeding his authority, and got impeached for interfering with foreign policy as set by the democratically elected Congress.

Trumps policies, such as they are, are straight out of the 17th century playbook.
Blatant corruption, nepotism, bribery, oppression of the many for the oligarchic few.
He is a throwback, not a trend setter.
 
Trumps policies, such as they are, are straight out of the 17th century playbook.
He is a throwback, not a trend setter.
And more's the pity that someone didn't.
 
Here are all the current and former military leaders blasting Trump’s {& Emoticons} response to nationwide protests.
JARED KELLERUPDATED:JUN 3, 2020. Full Link


Former Defense Secretary James Mattis:
Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people—does not even pretend to try. Instead he tries to divide us. We are witnessing the consequences of three years of this deliberate effort. We are witnessing the consequences of three years without mature leadership. We can unite without him, drawing on the strengths inherent in our civil society.

This will not be easy, as the past few days have shown, but we owe it to our fellow citizens; to past generations that bled to defend our promise; and to our children.
Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Mike Mullen:
It sickened me yesterday to see security personnel—including members of the National Guard—forcibly and violently clear a path through Lafayette Square to accommodate the president's visit outside St. John's Church. I have to date been reticent to speak out on issues surrounding President Trump's leadership, but we are at an inflection point, and the events of the past few weeks have made it impossible to remain silent.

Whatever Trump's goal in conducting his visit, he laid bare his disdain for the rights of peaceful protest in this country, gave succor to the leaders of other countries who take comfort in our domestic strife, and risked further politicizing the men and women of our armed forces.
Retired Navy Adm. James G. Stavridis:
Our active duty military must remain above the fray of domestic politics, and the best way to do that is to keep that force focused on its rightful mission outside the United States. Our senior active duty military leaders must make that case forcefully and directly to national leadership, speaking truth to power in uncomfortable ways. They must do this at the risk of their career. I hope they will do so, and not allow the military to be dragged into the maelstrom that is ahead of us, and which will likely only accelerate between now and November. If they do not stand and deliver on this vital core value, I fear for the soul of our military and all of the attendant consequences. We cannot afford to have a future Lafayette Square end up looking like Tiananmen Square.
Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Martin E. Dempsey:
America’s military, our sons and daughters, will place themselves at risk to protect their fellow citizens. Their job is unimaginably hard overseas; harder at home. Respect them, for they respect you. America is not a battleground. Our fellow citizens are not the enemy.
Former U.S. Special Operations Command Gen. Raymond A. Thomas:
The “battle space” of America??? Not what America needs to hear...ever, unless we are invaded by an adversary or experience a constitutional failure...ie a Civil War...
Within the administration, other generals and military leaders have spoken out both against racism and policy brutality and to reaffirm their commitment to upholding the constitutional rights of citizens regardless of their orders.

Army Chief of Staff Gen. James C. McConville:
Every Soldier and Department of the Army Civilian swears an oath to support and defend the Constitution. That includes the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. We will continue to support and defend those rights, and we will continue to protect Americans, whether from enemies of the United States overseas, from COVID-19 at home, or from violence in our communities that threatens to drown out the voices begging us to listen. To Army leaders of all ranks, listen to your people, but don’t wait for them to come to you. Go to them. Ask the uncomfortable questions. Lead with compassion and humility, and create an environment in which people feel comfortable expressing grievances. Let us be the first to set the example. We are listening. And we will continue to put people first as long as we are leading the Army. Because people are our greatest strength
Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Mike Gilday:
First right now, I think we need to listen. We have black Americans in our Navy and in our communities that are in deep pain right now. They are hurting. I’ve received emails, and I know it’s not a good situation. I know that for many of them, they may not have somebody to talk to. I ask you to consider reaching out, have a cup of coffee, have lunch, and just listen.

The second thing I would ask you to consider in the Navy we talk a lot about treating people with dignity and respect – in fact, we demand it. It’s one of the things that makes us a great Navy and one of the things that makes me so proud of all of you every single day. But over the past week, after we’ve watched what is going on, we can’t be under any illusions about the fact that racism is alive and well in our country. And I can’t be under any illusions that we don’t have it in our Navy.
Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. David Goldfein:
“Every American should be outraged that the conduct exhibited by police in Minneapolis can still happen in 2020. We all wish it were not possible for racism to occur in America … but it does, and we are at a moment where we must confront what is.”

“[W]hat happens on America’s streets is also resident in our Air Force ... Sometimes it’s explicit, sometimes it’s subtle, but we are not immune to the spectrum of racial prejudice, systemic discrimination, and unconscious bias. We see this in the apparent inequity in our application of military justice.

“We will not shy away from this ... As leaders and as Airmen, we will own our part and confront it head on.”
National Guard Bureau Chief Gen. Joseph Lengyel:
"I am sickened by the death of George Floyd. I am horrified his six year old daughter will grow up without a father. And I am enraged that this story—of George Floyd, of Philando Castile, of Trayvon Martin, and too many others—keeps happening in our country, where unarmed men and women of color are the victims of police brutality and extrajudicial violence.
...
"Everyone who wears the uniform of our country takes an oath to uphold the Constitution and everything for which it stands. If we are to fulfill our obligation as service members, as Americans, and as decent human beings, we have to take our oath seriously. We cannot tolerate racism, discrimination, or casual violence. We cannot abide divisiveness and hate. We cannot stand by and watch. We ask for the intercession of what Abraham Lincoln called 'the better angels of our nature.' Join me."
Defense Secretary Mark Esper:
“With great sympathy, I want to extend the deepest of condolences to the family and friends of George Floyd from me and the department. Racism is real in America and we must all do our very best to recognize it, to confront it, and to eradicate it.”
...
“I say this not only as secretary of defense but also as a former soldier and a former member of the National Guard: The option to use active-duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort – and only in the most urgent and dire of situations. We are not in one of those situations now. I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act.”
 
I wholeheartedly disagree; no matter where he/she is located or what the circumstances, a commander always has a duty to their personnel. It may not be their first priority in a particular circumstance, but that obligation comes with command. A commander with no obligation to those under their command is not fit to hold such authority. The way you have stated it, even if an order received could not result in a goal being achieved, the lives of subordinates should be committed to enacting it, because it was part of the mission. How very Red Army 1942.
That is a throughly modern mindset and the wars we fight today I'm afraid simply don't make the grade as a national struggle for life and death, so we can afford that attitude. As clemenceau once said, wars are not up to generals, as its too important than that. A commander will do what he's told, or he will be replaced.

In politics, the mission is reelection and in sociopathic terms its the only thing that matters to politicians. I once read an interesting aside on dien bien phu and how far navarre was being pushed by the politicians.
 
Trump was elected, (with the help of some Russian friends and a bungling FBI) but that certainly hasn't stopped many other tin pot dictators who have been elected and then felt a pressing need to put troops on the streets and not bother with that democracy nonsense when re election time comes around.
Trump has spent the past 3 years being regularly over turned in Court for exceeding his authority, and got impeached for interfering with foreign policy as set by the democratically elected Congress.

Trumps policies, such as they are, are straight out of the 17th century playbook.
Blatant corruption, nepotism, bribery, oppression of the many for the oligarchic few.
He is a throwback, not a trend setter.
Never bought that viewpoint. As I've always seen his election as about the opposition(clinton) being despised by middle america to the extent anyone would do and the media undermining, all the other republican candidates, to facilitate the rise of trump who the media thought clinton would knock out of the park.

On Trump, my original point before helm dragged me off the point, was all around disruptive marketing and that is throughly modern. On his policies, I didn't know he had any, his aim was reelection and seemingly he thought he could fix the economics side.
 

Helm

MIA
Moderator
Book Reviewer
That is a throughly modern mindset and the wars we fight today I'm afraid simply don't make the grade as a national struggle for life and death, so we can afford that attitude. As clemenceau once said, wars are not up to generals, as its too important than that. A commander will do what he's told, or he will be replaced.

In politics, the mission is reelection and in sociopathic terms its the only thing that matters to politicians. I once read an interesting aside on dien bien phu and how far navarre was being pushed by the politicians.
I'll repeat the "mission" in Politics should not be re-election it should be doing the best job you can for the people and country. And stop trying to blame me for your inability to debate or defend your weak stance.
 
Never bought that viewpoint. As I've always seen his election as about the opposition(clinton) being despised by middle america to the extent anyone would do and the media undermining, all the other republican candidates, to facilitate the rise of trump who the media thought clinton would knock out of the park.

On Trump, my original point before helm dragged me off the point, was all around disruptive marketing and that is throughly modern. On his policies, I didn't know he had any, his aim was reelection and seemingly he thought he could fix the economics side.
Just cos you don't buy it doesn't make it wrong.
When the general consensus (and indeed, the consensus of the Generals) is that the Commander in chief is a divisive threat to society, and the opposing view is, well, Trump, then (whisper it quietly) YOU MIGHT BE WRONG.
"Disruptive marketing" is not an interchangeable term for sedition, chaos and anarchy. Which is what Trump and his cult like followers have promoted.
Russia and China is happy though.
It proves that democracy has failed, and their downtrodden citizens can't expect to see it at home. Just be content with the safe, brutal dictators they know.
 
In politics, the mission is reelection and in sociopathic terms its the only thing that matters to politicians.
I will cut you some slack for that as it is, sadly, true.

But that surely is the Swamp where politicians orbit in their own little solar system with their preservation being their raison d'etre. Where all that counts is power, influence, lobby groups, vested interests and money.

I recall someone saying they would drain the Swamp. Regrettably they diverted the Potomac into it instead and turned it into a worse quagmire of corruption, nepotism and lies.

Not only has that person been a signal failure at draining the corrupt Washington Swamp but he has succeeded in redefining it. Instead of the corrupt network of influence, lobbying, pork barrel rolling and vested interests it seems to have become the army of long-serving, dedicated, loyal and trustworthy civil servants.
 
I will cut you some slack for that as it is, sadly, true.

But that surely is the Swamp where politicians orbit in their own little solar system with their preservation being their raison d'etre. Where all that counts is power, influence, lobby groups, vested interests and money.

I recall someone saying they would drain the Swamp. Regrettably they diverted the Potomac into it instead and turned it into a worse quagmire of corruption, nepotism and lies.

Not only has that person been a signal failure at draining the corrupt Washington Swamp but he has succeeded in redefining it. Instead of the corrupt network of influence, lobbying, pork barrel rolling and vested interests it seems to have become the army of long-serving, dedicated, loyal and trustworthy civil servants.
I agree and Trump knew the swamp could NOT be drained, no single individual in a democracy has that power and neither did Trump have the GOP in his pocket. I said the other day, he quickly found his writ only stretched to the white house gates and what the party would let him get away with, whilst taking all the blame for any negative media attention.

By all the laws of politics he hasn't a hope of winning again. I tried to explore how his disruptive marketing works and thanks to another poor opponent and rioting, he is back in the game. It upsets people to be flippant, but that is how politicians see politics.
 

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