The Times - Case of Cpl Ellement, who hanged herself, leads to call for RMP watchdog

TheHippo

Clanker
"Over generalised with little basis in fact?" Is that you trying to sound authoritative?

You're not the only one who's seen both sides of the fence and there is plenty of fact in that post. If you would care to highlight the 'generalisation' I'll discuss it with you, alternatively you can check the HMIC website as I suggested. I wouldn't argue that CivPol have more volume crime to deal with, as they operate in areas that suffer more social deprivation than do RMP, but CivPol lose a substantial amount of summary cases (where @ 70% of their work goes) due to poor police work/file preparation. RMP do not. Fact.

I'd say that your post needs to be more specific if it's an argument you want, as it is very 'general'.


I think RMP would loose a far greater number of cases if they were at magistrates court as opposed to Summary Hearings.


The service justice system seems less concerned with due process and absolute procedure. I don't think it's a better standard of investigation.
 
"Over generalised with little basis in fact?" Is that you trying to sound authoritative?

You're not the only one who's seen both sides of the fence and there is plenty of fact in that post. If you would care to highlight the 'generalisation' I'll discuss it with you, alternatively you can check the HMIC website as I suggested. I wouldn't argue that CivPol have more volume crime to deal with, as they operate in areas that suffer more social deprivation than do RMP, but CivPol lose a substantial amount of summary cases (where @ 70% of their work goes) due to poor police work/file preparation. RMP do not. Fact.

I'd say that your post needs to be more specific if it's an argument you want, as it is very 'general'.

As I said, good and bad investigators in both. I knew of a proportion of RMP who went through their careers with less arrests than you can count on 2 hands. I would hazard a guess that my station generates more arrests and charges in a week than a RMP Coy does in a year with all the court cases that entails.

I am not knocking the RMP, I served 24 years and regularly defend them on here. The difference being that you can gold plate an investigation in The Corp if you wish, you have the time. In the real police a bloke might knock out 5 or so Narey files in a weekend and only have enough time to do the bare minimum on some of them. Of course this leads to cases being discontinued at court.

2 or 3 rapes, robberies and GBH incidents a day is not uncommon either. These always take priority with staff time.


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glasshammer

Old-Salt
RMP can be on a different planet. Whilst searching lockers looking for a camera missing in the lines they were more interested in buckshee kit. And I was amazed when they demanded to know what use I had for bungees and 58 pattern untility straps
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
As I said, good and bad investigators in both. I knew of a proportion of RMP who went through their careers with less arrests than you can count on 2 hands. I would hazard a guess that my station generates more arrests and charges in a week than a RMP Coy does in a year with all the court cases that entails.

I am not knocking the RMP, I served 24 years and regularly defend them on here. The difference being that you can gold plate an investigation in The Corp if you wish, you have the time. In the real police a bloke might knock out 5 or so Narey files in a weekend and only have enough time to do the bare minimum on some of them. Of course this leads to cases being discontinued at court.

2 or 3 rapes, robberies and GBH incidents a day is not uncommon either. These always take priority with staff time.


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Agreed in the main, and I'm not suggesting that RMP are better, but I am suggesting that there's little that CivPol can teach them. They are already up to speed in the command area, but there's not a CID office in the land who can bring anything new to the party. 83 Sect (V) has many serving CID, but they don't produce anything more or better than the regular SIB. The fact is that they are time limited (you can't do a lot in a 14 day annual camp), but my point is that they don't bring anything with them. The standard of the work which they do produce isn't any better than that produced by their regular counterparts. It has on occasion been worse and there was one incident where a case had to be thrown out because of the conduct of the TA Investigator who was a CID Officer in his day job, but that's going back some time now.

I appreciate that the volume is far greater on the outside and that it can get a bit hectic, but that doesn't excuse shoddy work and I've seen lots of that. The checking chain in RMP is more effective than in CivPol, and RMP don't have the luxury of a CJU. Neither do they have civilian investigators or PHTs. RMP Coys in Germany are fielding 4 pers on duty on a Saturday night, two of who remain indoors. CivPol in some areas are fielding 20+ on response and neighbourhood per day. The RMP have less to deal with as they have, in the main, a better 'society' to police. As examples, Burglary Dwelling is practically unheard of in the mob, as is any form of car crime, but they're bread and butter jobs on the outside. In some force areas, it's relentless and prioritisation is unavoidable. RMP would never get away with that. You know yourself, that the CoC wouldn't let them. Every job will be attended a d dealt with. I doubt that one station would generate as many arrests in a week as what a 'Company' does per annum, but I take your point as do I with regards to 'good and bad' (I've worked with and for some right tossers on both sides of the fence...you can't escape them).

They take a knocking and it's not always deserved.
 
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Biscuits_AB

Guest
RMP can be on a different planet. Whilst searching lockers looking for a camera missing in the lines they were more interested in buckshee kit. And I was amazed when they demanded to know what use I had for bungees and 58 pattern untility straps

You didn't tell them did you?
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
I think RMP would loose a far greater number of cases if they were at magistrates court as opposed to Summary Hearings.


The service justice system seems less concerned with due process and absolute procedure. I don't think it's a better standard of investigation.

I would disagree with you there, but I do think it would be a good thing for RMP cases to go to Magistrates. That however, would in many cases, be impractical. RMP actually lose fewer cases than you would imagine.
 

TheHippo

Clanker
I would disagree with you there, but I do think it would be a good thing for RMP cases to go to Magistrates. That however, would in many cases, be impractical. RMP actually lose fewer cases than you would imagine.
I think a Summary Hearing is all to often a "done deal."


How could a servicemen be found "charge proven" at a Summary Hearing for conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline, yet on appeal the case was not referred to the SAC. (Insufficient possibility of a reasonable chance of a conviction.)


If this sort of thing ever happens with criminal charges, it does not provide confidence in the system.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
I think a Summary Hearing is all to often a "done deal."


How could a servicemen be found "charge proven" at a Summary Hearing for conduct prejudicial to good order and discipline, yet on appeal the case was not referred to the SAC. (Insufficient possibility of a reasonable chance of a conviction.)


If this sort of thing ever happens with criminal charges, it does not provide confidence in the system.

That's nothing to do with RMP though, that's the system as it stands...and how it has stood for too long. RMP, if involved, provide the evidence, which passes through ALS and onto the unit CO. What the CO does with it, is down to him, but there is no collusion between RMP and CO's. And it doesn't matter how many law firms say that there is.
 
Agreed in the main, and I'm not suggesting that RMP are better, but I am suggesting that there's little that CivPol can teach them. They are already up to speed in the command area, but there's not a CID office in the land who can bring anything new to the party. 83 Sect (V) has many serving CID, but they don't produce anything more or better than the regular SIB. The fact is that they are time limited (you can't do a lot in a 14 day annual camp), but my point is that they don't bring anything with them. The standard of the work which they do produce isn't any better than that produced by their regular counterparts. It has on occasion been worse and there was one incident where a case had to be thrown out because of the conduct of the TA Investigator who was a CID Officer in his day job, but that's going back some time now.

I appreciate that the volume is far greater on the outside and that it can get a bit hectic, but that doesn't excuse shoddy work and I've seen lots of that. The checking chain in RMP is more effective than in CivPol, and RMP don't have the luxury of a CJU. Neither do they have civilian investigators or PHTs. RMP Coys in Germany are fielding 4 pers on duty on a Saturday night, two of who remain indoors. CivPol in some areas are fielding 20+ on response and neighbourhood per day. The RMP have less to deal with as they have, in the main, a better 'society' to police. As examples, Burglary Dwelling is practically unheard of in the mob, as is any form of car crime, but they're bread and butter jobs on the outside. In some force areas, it's relentless and prioritisation is unavoidable. RMP would never get away with that. You know yourself, that the CoC wouldn't let them. Every job will be attended a d dealt with. I doubt that one station would generate as many arrests in a week as what a 'Company' does per annum, but I take your point as do I with regards to 'good and bad' (I've worked with and for some right tossers on both sides of the fence...you can't escape them).

They take a knocking and it's not always deserved.

I think we will have to agree to disagree, I work in a town of 180,000 people, we put out a max of 10 to 12 people if we are lucky. The tempo of policing and the seriousness of offences is way in excess of anything I saw in The Corps. You say that shoddy work is no excuse, I would call it necessary minimal work just to keep units on the ground responding to incessant 999 calls and spontaneous incidents.

The scope of work covers all the motorways and dual carriageways with fatal RTC that are dealt with by PC's, serious public disorder with multiple PSU involvement, firearms incidents and mutual aid to neighbouring forces including the PSNI. Not to mention drugs and drug related violent and dishonest crime.

If you think we have much of a CJU left you are mistaken. If you think the RMP can learn nothing from CivPol then you are setting the Corps up for failure. I know that the real police could definitely learn some things from the army and the RMP in particular.

I still see RMP in action in a few towns and I know generally how limited their capability is, staffing and knowledge wise, they would very quickly be overwhelmed without the support of various other Policing agencies in UK.


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Do you know exactly what the role of the SIB is & the fact they are as qualified as civi plod with their own scenes of Crime Officers and forensic technicians or is it your contention they are only fit to solve locker thefts?
Ooh, ooh, I can answer that one. They'd struggle even at locker theft. Does that help?
 

The_Snail

ADC
RIP
That's nothing to do with RMP though, that's the system as it stands...and how it has stood for too long. RMP, if involved, provide the evidence, which passes through ALS and onto the unit CO. What the CO does with it, is down to him, but there is no collusion between RMP and CO's. And it doesn't matter how many law firms say that there is.

<<Shimmies into CA>>

Bickies, you and I know the score. Monday mornings at BHQ The Kingos would always bring me a pleasant surprise. Stabbings, thieving, scrapping etc. etc. I've seen it all.

RMP report comes in. The SSA thinks "Oh Oh, this will be a biggy",
Adjt has a look at the report. *Sod this, I'm showing the CO".
CO sees the RMP report. "SSA, get the ALS on this one please".

After the initial report from the RMP, and statements, unless they have to appear as witnesses, they have no other involvement. Trust me. I spent more time in Catterick CMC than I did at home when I worked with those lovable Kingos.

Unless you get some weirdo plod who insists on visiting your office all the time.

<<Shimmies back out of CA>>
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
When I say shoddy. I mean exactly that. Exceptional poor quality work and nothing to do with the tempo of taskings. My experience of CID backs up my claim that they offer nothing to SIB. Many of them are not even PIP2 trained. That's the minimum standard before you even get into the SIB. I've no idea which Force that you are with, but on the whole CJUs in my experience are well staffed and very vocal about the standard of file submitted to them. That comes back to supervision, the standard of which isn't what it should be. As I said earlier, the RMP checking chain is far more stringent and being ex Corps, you'd know that.

I'd say RMP knowledge is as good as their counterparts and better in some cases (if you did your training over 24 years ago in RMP, it was indeed limited back then). That's no throw away comment, I'm basing this on my experience of both sides. I have been taken aback more than once hearing a PC state that they had no idea that they could and couldn't do this and that. I've even heard an Inspector say that he wasn't aware that there was a Code G. Honestly. Stop and search is a joke in many places. Even the HMIC has highlighted that. I stand by my claim that there is nothing for RMP to learn from CivPol. I'm not sure what you mean by setting the Corps up for failure. I'm no longer in the Corps but there is very little reliance placed upon CivPol by RMP. That much I do know. If anything, the opposite is more the case. The amount of work I've had palmed off on me over the years by CivPol because they couldn't be bothered is shocking. They were always back on the phone to see if this and that job was a positive when they needed to sort their crime figures out though.

Your anecdotes re mutual support, etc, can be tempered out by the requirement of RMP to deploy, so 'it's horses for courses'. You're obviously only seeing RMP here on UK mainland where even in the Garrison towns, there's little for them. Germany as you will know, is a different ball game. Joe Squaddie doesn't pop home to mum and dad for the weekend as he does in UK. Where they accumulate, you'll have violence. Drugs offences are commonplace nowadays. There's also support provided to GCP, by taking jobs from them. It's busy for the small numbers of people available.

It comes down to RMP being an investigative agency for an employer. They're not a Constabulary, yet are frequently compared against them. We're back to 'horses for courses'.
 
C

CivPlod

Guest
When I say shoddy. I mean exactly that. Exceptional poor quality work and nothing to do with the tempo of taskings. My experience of CID backs up my claim that they offer nothing to SIB. Many of them are not even PIP2 trained. That's the minimum standard before you even get into the SIB. I've no idea which Force that you are with, but on the whole CJUs in my experience are well staffed and very vocal about the standard of file submitted to them. That comes back to supervision, the standard of which isn't what it should be. As I said earlier, the RMP checking chain is far more stringent.

I'd say RMP knowledge is as good as their counterparts and better in some cases (if you did your training over 24 years ago in RMP, it was indeed limited back then). That's no throw away comment, I'm basing this on my experience of both sides. I have been taken aback more than once hearing a PC state that they had no idea that they could and couldn't do this and that. I've even heard an Inspector say that he wasn't aware that there was a Code G. Honestly. Stop and search is a joke in many places. Even the HMIC has highlighted that. I stand by my claim that there is nothing for RMP to learn from CivPol. I'm not sure what you mean by setting the Corps up for failure. I'm no longer in the Corps but there is very little reliance placed upon CivPol by RMP. That much I do know.

Your anecdotes re mutual support, etc, can be tempered out by the requirement of RMP to deploy, so 'it's horses for courses'. You're obviously only seeing RMP here on UK mainland where even in the Garrison towns, there's little for them. Germany as you will know, is a different ball game. Joe Squaddie doesn't pop home to mum and dad for the weekend as he does in UK. Where they accumulate, you'll have violence. Drugs offences are commonplace nowadays. There's also support provided to GCP, by taking jobs from them. It's busy for the small numbers of people available.

It comes down to RMP being an investigative agency for an employer. They're not a Constabulary, yet are frequently compared against them. We're back to 'horses for courses'.

The more I read from yourself and others in England about your plod(and having experienced the "no go areas" whilst on mutual aid with the Met during the riots) the more I'm dismayed with how shite English cops are.


Sent using the patented Telsascope and telsa coil by Nikola Telsa, from Mars.
 
B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
<<Shimmies into CA>>

Bickies, you and I know the score. Monday mornings at BHQ The Kingos would always bring me a pleasant surprise. Stabbings, thieving, scrapping etc. etc. I've seen it all.

RMP report comes in. The SSA thinks "Oh Oh, this will be a biggy",
Adjt has a look at the report. *Sod this, I'm showing the CO".
CO sees the RMP report. "SSA, get the ALS on this one please".

After the initial report from the RMP, and statements, unless they have to appear as witnesses, they have no other involvement. Trust me. I spent more time in Catterick CMC than I did at home when I worked with those lovable Kingos.

Unless you get some weirdo plod who insists on visiting your office all the time.

<<Shimmies back out of CA>>

Between them and the QLR, they both proved that a UK posting for RMP could be busier than a BFG one.
 
When I say shoddy. I mean exactly that. Exceptional poor quality work and nothing to do with the tempo of taskings. My experience of CID backs up my claim that they offer nothing to SIB. Many of them are not even PIP2 trained. That's the minimum standard before you even get into the SIB. I've no idea which Force that you are with, but on the whole CJUs in my experience are well staffed and very vocal about the standard of file submitted to them. That comes back to supervision, the standard of which isn't what it should be. As I said earlier, the RMP checking chain is far more stringent and being ex Corps, you'd know that.

I'd say RMP knowledge is as good as their counterparts and better in some cases (if you did your training over 24 years ago in RMP, it was indeed limited back then). That's no throw away comment, I'm basing this on my experience of both sides. I have been taken aback more than once hearing a PC state that they had no idea that they could and couldn't do this and that. I've even heard an Inspector say that he wasn't aware that there was a Code G. Honestly. Stop and search is a joke in many places. Even the HMIC has highlighted that. I stand by my claim that there is nothing for RMP to learn from CivPol. I'm not sure what you mean by setting the Corps up for failure. I'm no longer in the Corps but there is very little reliance placed upon CivPol by RMP. That much I do know.

Your anecdotes re mutual support, etc, can be tempered out by the requirement of RMP to deploy, so 'it's horses for courses'. You're obviously only seeing RMP here on UK mainland where even in the Garrison towns, there's little for them. Germany as you will know, is a different ball game. Joe Squaddie doesn't pop home to mum and dad for the weekend as he does in UK. Where they accumulate, you'll have violence. Drugs offences are commonplace nowadays. There's also support provided to GCP, by taking jobs from them. It's busy for the small numbers of people available.

It comes down to RMP being an investigative agency for an employer. They're not a Constabulary, yet are frequently compared against them. We're back to 'horses for courses'.

As I said, we will have to agree to disagree. The crux of the matter from my point of view is anyone can gold plate a few jobs and supervise a few jobs, the difference comes when the volume outstrips the police available to do a great job on each.

I would be interested to know where your knowledge of CivPol comes from, are you serving?


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B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
As I said, we will have to agree to disagree. The crux of the matter from my point of view is anyone can gold plate a few jobs and supervise a few jobs, the difference comes when the volume outstrips the police available to do a great job on each.

I would be interested to know where your knowledge of CivPol comes from, are you serving?


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Sorry mate, I'm not giving any personal information out on a public website.
 
The more I read from yourself and others in England about your plod(and having experienced the "no go areas" whilst on mutual aid with the Met during the riots) the more I'm dismayed with how shite English cops are.


Sent using the patented Telsascope and telsa coil by Nikola Telsa, from Mars.

As a matter of interest, their are nearly twice as many people packed into London many from every country in the world as their are in the whole of Scotland. Difficult to compare.


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