The Times - Case of Cpl Ellement, who hanged herself, leads to call for RMP watchdog

msr

LE
however, it's quite clear that someone, somewhere, failed to assess the likely political and social fallout - which we're seeing now.

And for an organisation which has supposedly has 2nd and 3rd order effects and Human Terrain Analysis at the heart of its COIN doctrine for may years, professionally embarrassing too.
 

Bouillabaisse

LE
Book Reviewer
Dangermouse, I'm not going to reply to your PM's. If there's anything you want to argue with me, do so in an open forum. It is after all what arrse is all about. Some points:

1. I'm not going to phone you, no matter how often you PM me your number. I have no wish to get involved in your crusade or discuss the endless details because, frankly, I don't really care.

2. I'm not going to phone the CO SIB even if you send me his number. I suspect he and his team have more important things to do than talk to a long-retired navy bod about this or any other subject and because, frankly, I don't really care.

3. I'm not going to stop asking awkward questions because it doesn't suit your agenda or the outrage script you have for this or any other thread you start on the iniquities of the military justice system. You may or may not have a point but if you do, argue it here in open forum, respond to points that people raise and convince me that you are right. At the moment you post quotations from other sources and that's it. Use your own words, not other people's.

4. I know who you are, because you've told me. Why not tell everyone so they can judge your posts and viewpoint on the underlying facts? Or are you afraid that there might be a tad more scepticism about your motives?
 
Hippo, it depends on your definition of recent. HM Inspector of Constabulary conducted an audit of RMP SIB at the request of the then Director General of Security at MOD in 2006. This was not at the invitation of Provost Marshal (Army) whatever he might have said to BBC Radio 4 journalists.
Follow the the link to the report, it's an interesting read:
HMIC » Ministry of Defence
 

TheHippo

Clanker
Hippo, it depends on your definition of recent. HM Inspector of Constabulary conducted an audit of RMP SIB at the request of the then Director General of Security at MOD in 2006. This was not at the invitation of Provost Marshal (Army) whatever he might have said to BBC Radio 4 journalists.
Follow the the link to the report, it's an interesting read:
HMIC » Ministry of Defence


The word "Recent" is subjective, but the audit was conducted over 5 years ago during the time of transition between single services acts to the Armed Forces Act 2006. Despite provision in legislation for independent oversight from HMIC, this has not been brought into force because of reluctance from the MoD.


If more serious investigations than "locker thefts" are undertaken by SIB then the MoD are leaving themselves heavily exposed if they deliberately ignore their legal obligations. Royal Military Police 'needs independent oversight' - Channel 4 News
 

glasshammer

Old-Salt
Dont think she had a leg to stand on saying she couldnt remember stuff. They may have done it but they also may not. There are cases where later a wome has admitted it was made up. Did she kill herself because of the backlash or the actual event as if she cant remember? Weve all been there and got pissed and shagged somene we regret. Sorry to be controversial but it has to be considered. Why would two blokes rape her was it a threesome that she later regretted?
 

baconator

Old-Salt
Dont think she had a leg to stand on saying she couldnt remember stuff. They may have done it but they also may not. There are cases where later a wome has admitted it was made up. Did she kill herself because of the backlash or the actual event as if she cant remember? Weve all been there and got pissed and shagged somene we regret. Sorry to be controversial but it has to be considered. Why would two blokes rape her was it a threesome that she later regretted?

If all three of them were pissed off there faces, none can remember what happened, and she waited months to report, there would be reasonable grounds to not believe her. Like you said, perhaps she had a three-some, or at least she thought she did but can't remember, and regretted it. Hated her life so much she thought she could claim rape, and maybe change her life that way. Doesn't seem a too far out to me.

I know people that have dealt with depression and their moods and minds are all over the show, usually their emotions take over and decisions are made on emotions not logic, that coupled with drinking was never going to end well.
Add anti depressants to that and it's down hill from there.
 

RAF889

Old-Salt
Dont think she had a leg to stand on saying she couldnt remember stuff. They may have done it but they also may not. There are cases where later a wome has admitted it was made up. Did she kill herself because of the backlash or the actual event as if she cant remember? Weve all been there and got pissed and shagged somene we regret. Sorry to be controversial but it has to be considered. Why would two blokes rape her was it a threesome that she later regretted?

Whatever the truth, the poor girl was tormented enough to take her own life. Those two RMP are going to have to live with the fact they contributed to her death.
She wouldn't be the first woman to alledge rape falsely in the Armed Forces. She also wouldn't be the first to alledge rape and have it ignored or washed over.
Maybe the truth will out, I hope so for her family but they will need to be prepared to hear things they don't like about their daughter/sister.
 
So let me just clarify what your saying, you have changed the word "of" to "have" and because of that i am spouting chavesque nonsense? Roger that Delta, roger that.

That's because "would of" is the way illiterates write "would've" which is a standard contraction of "would have". Would of doesn't make any sense at all in English.
[h=3]of[/h]/əv/
Preposition

  1. Expressing the relationship between a part and a whole: "the sleeve of his coat".
  2. Expressing the relationship between a scale or measure and a value: "an increase of 5 percent".

 
Being a kick boxer too if someone tried to rape you you would at least of done some damage

Does kickboxing work when you are flat out pissed?
 

glasshammer

Old-Salt
Its was only a theory she might of in her own mind believed she was raped. Ive known people who very nearly could of been caught out by this sort of thing. Women get very drunk these days compared to previous generation. As a bloke ive been that pissed in the past ive been ashamed if some of the women ive slept with and you cant tell me they didnt know it too but ive only myself to blame for getting in that state.. the police these days are wise to it with women too. I saw a tv programme about the local police who investate such things a women accused two men of rape in a hotel room. When they investigated they had cctv and witnesses that she was game for it. She just woke up in the morning and decided to point the finger
 

Bowmore_Assassin

LE
Moderator
Book Reviewer
PigGunner - out of order. Reported to relevant mod.


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B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
Probably a limitation by Statute on their jurisdiction; HMIC have audited the RMP in the recent past though.

It was only the SIB who were inspected but they never attended to many if any of the HMIC's recommendations as detailed in the first inspection report. In all the report was quite good (you can find it on line), but the second inspection report highlights the HMIC's disappointment in their 'reluctance' to move (also on line). However, you would be surprised at the 'advice' given by HMIC to CivPol, who experience more criticism than RMP. The PM (A) at the time of the first HMIC inspection was in too much of a rush to wave the 'look at us, aren't we good' flag. He assumed that the HMIC report was 'carte blanche' to carry on normal jogging. That's what happened when you have a former school teacher with limited knowledge in policing, in charge. Mind you, some of his internal advisers needed their arses kicking as it was they who refused to budge.

Word, as I have it, is that RMP are currently considering putting personnel on attachments to CivPol. I can honestly say that if this is aimed at the 'shop floor' it would be a wasted effort. They won't learn much there, despite this 'myth' that CivPol are all things to crime fighting which some would and do believe. Attendance on the senior and specialised courses which CivPol can provide are a must and indeed SIB do attend these, however, SIB won't learn anything in a CID Office as in most cases SIB are the better investigators, and they deal with higher level crime than most CID Officers. There is the internal crap that they have to deal with but they are in the Army, and it comes with the job. Where CivPol beat RMP hands down, is in resources and manpower. RMP are far too thin on the ground and they are often employed in roles which do not bring much in the way of policing experience. That is something which they have suffered from for years.

This post will no doubt attract the usual suspects, but if you look on the HMIC website, you'll find several reports as to current competence issues with CivPol, particularly in management and overall knowledge of law and procedure. Don't take my word for it or anybody else's.....the 'facts' are there for you to read yourselves.

As for an ombudsman, the IPCC are well placed to take that role on, so there is no real need to create a separate body, which, for those of you who have rightly questioned independence of enquiries, would, if created, be staffed by former SIB. Independence lost straight away.

As for RAF investigating RMP, etc, etc., it's not the best solution but that may be all that there is currently.
 
It was only the SIB who were inspected but they never attended to many if any of the HMIC's recommendations as detailed in the first inspection report. In all the report was quite good (you can find it on line), but the second inspection report highlights the HMIC's disappointment in their 'reluctance' to move (also on line). However, you would be surprised at the 'advice' given by HMIC to CivPol, who experience more criticism than RMP. The PM (A) at the time of the first HMIC inspection was in to much of a rush to wave the 'look at us, aren't we good' flag. He assumed that the HMIC report was 'carte blanche' to carry on normal jogging. Mind you, some of his internal advisers needed their arses kicking as it was they who refused to budge.

Word, as I have it, is that RMP are currently considering putting personnel on attachments to CivPol. I can honestly say that if this is aimed at the 'shop floor' it would be a wasted effort. They won't learn much there, despite this 'myth' that CivPol are all things to crime fighting which some would and do believe. Attendance on the senior and specialised courses which CivPol can provide are a must and indeed SIB do attend these, however, SIB won't learn anything in a CID Office as in most cases SIB are the better investigators.

This post will no doubt attract the usual suspects, but if you look on the HMIC website, you'll find several reports as to current competence issues with CivPol, particularly in management and overall knowledge of law and procedure. Don't take my word for it or anybody else's.....the 'facts' are there for you to read yourselves.

As for an ombudsman, the IPCC are well placed to take that role on, so there is no real need to create a separate body, which, for those of you who have rightly questioned independence of enquiries, would, if created, be staffed by former SIB. Independence lost straight away.

As for RAF investigating RMP, etc, etc., it's not the best solution but that may be all that there is currently.

An over generalised post with little basis in fact. I have served in both and I can say that the standard of investigations in the RMP can be very good, it can also be very poor, the same as the real police. Where the real police differ is the large volume of reported crime that they deal with on a constant basis and the variety of incidents that they deal with.




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B

Biscuits_AB

Guest
"Over generalised with little basis in fact?" Is that you trying to sound authoritative?

You're not the only one who's seen both sides of the fence and there is plenty of fact in that post. If you would care to highlight the 'generalisation' I'll discuss it with you, alternatively you can check the HMIC website as I suggested. I wouldn't argue that CivPol have more volume crime to deal with, as they operate in areas that suffer more social deprivation than do RMP, but CivPol lose a substantial amount of summary cases (where @ 70% of their work goes) due to poor police work/file preparation. RMP do not. Fact.

I'd say that your post needs to be more specific if it's an argument you want, as it is very 'general'.
 
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