The Times - Army told to open up system of justice

DangerMouse

Old-Salt
Moderator
Moon has just been on C4 news in a very transparent attempt to get herself another job. The officer was mentioned as well, fortunately for him they neglected to detail the circumstances of his discharge.Posted from the ARRSE Mobile app (iOS or Android)

1. Are you really suggesting Madeline Moon hopes to resign from parliament to become the Armed Forces Ombudsman? If so, please adduce evidence. If not, why did you say it?

2. I think you'll find that if people are speaking out to MPs it's because they're not guilty and therefore they have nothing to hide. I'm familiar with the case, so if you want detailed information, PM me. I'll also include background about an assault on a junior female officer by a Lt Col, a cover up by other senior officers, abuse documented by the civilian courts of both AGAI 67 and Summary Hearing to victimise complainants, and five sexual assaults and rapes in which the victims were too afraid to report the WO1 rapist.

3. I'm not having a go at you, CamNostos, but knowing someone who this summer had a miscarriage and attempted suicide because of her treatment by Army HQ, I despair at your attitude. Have we forgotten Deepcut so soon?

As I say, PM me, we can swap DII details to verify identification, and I will provide you with War and Peace. It is intensely depressing, but should at least alleviate your apparent fears that people are making stuff up.


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Any system requires that the human participants who use it, abide by the procedures laid down. If they do not, then the system fails. This is not the fault of the system, but of the participants. The system already has enough safeguards and oversight, but again it relies on the participants to have the sand to use it, if their case has merits. Summary justice, should be exactly that, swift, just, fair and supportive of good discipline, the introduction of another beauracratic layer will kill swift discipline in its tracks and is therefore, IMO, contrary to what we want to acheive as an organisation.
 
2. I think you'll find that if people are speaking out to MPs it's because they're not guilty and therefore they have nothing to hide. I'm familiar with the case, so if you want detailed information, PM me. I'll also include background about an assault on a junior female officer by a Lt Col, a cover up by other senior officers, abuse documented by the civilian courts of both AGAI 67 and Summary Hearing to victimise complainants, and five sexual assaults and rapes in which the victims were too afraid to report the WO1 rapist.

Posted from the ARRSE Mobile app (iOS or Android)

...been rifling the files whilst undertaking duty clerk eh!
 
DM - Being harsh Ref. your last, this was not systemic failure, it was human failure. She had recourse to higher authority and chose not to take it?
 
1. Are you really suggesting Madeline Moon hopes to resign from parliament to become the Armed Forces Ombudsman? If so, please adduce evidence. If not, why did you say it?

2. I think you'll find that if people are speaking out to MPs it's because they're not guilty and therefore they have nothing to hide. I'm familiar with the case, so if you want detailed information, PM me. I'll also include background about an assault on a junior female officer by a Lt Col, a cover up by other senior officers, abuse documented by the civilian courts of both AGAI 67 and Summary Hearing to victimise complainants, and five sexual assaults and rapes in which the victims were too afraid to report the WO1 rapist.

3. I'm not having a go at you, CamNostos, but knowing someone who this summer had a miscarriage and attempted suicide because of her treatment by Army HQ, I despair at your attitude. Have we forgotten Deepcut so soon?

As I say, PM me, we can swap DII details to verify identification, and I will provide you with War and Peace. It is intensely depressing, but should at least alleviate your apparent fears that people are making stuff up.


Posted from the ARRSE Mobile app (iOS or Android)

PM'd or not I would imagine passing such information would lay you open to,more than AGAI 67 action.


Posted from the ARRSE Mobile app (iOS or Android)
 
Why should we be allowed to make avoidable mistakes and miscarriages of justice and not be held accountable like everybody else in society, 'heat of the moment' operational decisions excepted?

Good question. You are absolutely right to mention 'heat of the moment' operational decisions, because such phrases are indeed often dragged into the argument. However, having personally debated these issues in an international ECHR working group at Strasbourg, I have never heard anyone in UK or in Europe argue that such decisions should ever be subject to ECHR scrutiny of that kind. I have been concerned for some time that 'planted' misinformation about this issue could lead commanders at any level to look over their shoulders when in fact there is no need to.
 
Quote removed

Without endorsing your claim, it seems to me that failure to comply with Article 6 does not mean the officers deliberating on the conduct complained of are necessarily wrong in their conclusion or reasoning.
 

loopintheP

War Hero
I've been on the receiving end of an AGAI 67 and also had reason to resort to a Service Complaint. They were separate issues and years apart but I learned one very simple lesson from both: always get the most senior Assisting Officer that you possibly can to argue/present your case. Ideally a 1*....this is of course easier to achieve the longer you've served (you will know one or two) and if you're a Lt Col/Colonel its a given which may explain a few statistics.

When the day arrives you end up in a room with a 2* Deciding Officer or a Defence Panel (1 x 2* and 1 x 1* these days) who act on behalf of the Army Board. If there is an easy option for a Deciding Officer he will usually take it ie if there is a Major arguing a point with a Brigadier then he'll eventually go with the least awkward COA ....and agree with the Brigadier: so bring your own Brigadier. What then happens is a gentlemanly chat, or indeed any bluster and bullshit can be questioned by an "equal" rather than an "insubordinate" lower rank, and IMHO your chances of success (or avoiding a stiffing) improves quite dramatically.

It is after all a MILITARY process, governed by military preferences and laced with possibilities for appearing insubordinate so don't DIY or FFS bring your brother......
 
Overhaul is not required. Correct application of the rules as they stand however, would be nice. Another job creation scheme for Lawyers?

Agreed.

If you want committed people (irrespective of whether in civ or mil employ), you should bend over backwards to ensure that they are treated fairly.

The last time the military legal system was overhauled (1990s) it was - in no small way - because a large number of relatively junior officers (OCs and COs) could be shown to have discharged their summary powers (roughly equivalent to those of Magistrates) without due regard for the law, for due process, or for evidence: if such failings were ever found to be equally prevalent in Magistrates Courts, rioting would likely ensue, and the whole UK justice system would be at risk.

The fact of the military being 'a closed society' makes it more - not less - important that its leaders are scrupulous about observing both letter and spirit of the Law. Sadly, being 'a closed society' (with a unique and very powerful culture that views Bn COs as demigods) can create a climate in which such scrupulousness is interpreted as disloyal to The Boss, and therefore inimical to good order and military discipline. In that kind of climate "He's guilty 'cos the [insert minor functionary of choice here] sez so" pertains, and fairness runs out the door, closely followed by loyalty, commitment and morale.

Bottom line? If the Army doesn't want its legal powers reduced, all it needs to do is comply with the law of the land as scrupulously as is required of the rest of the Nation's legal system.

Any perception that the civvy system is bent/weak is irrelevant.
 
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