The thin line between banter and harassment.

[A signaller]

Truth is that- as with all of human endeavour- some people are “better” at banter than others. Quicker, funnier, louder, more charismatic. “Better”.
Banter can easily be a euphemism for bullying- only the victim is under pressure to laugh along and come back with some weak riposte of their own, which will probably be used as the basis of, and to justify and excuse, the continuance of more “banter”
Banter is okay when it’s on equal terms but it often isn’t. I would encourage anyone who has had enough of it to punch the banterer-in-chief full in the face. Shouting “B-A-N-T-E-R” as they so do.

All very laudable, and comes under the heading of Rough justice, however, in the civvie workplace, and more so in the military, its really going to affect your promotion prospects ( And in the mob, freedom of movement) prospects somewhat!

 

[Awol]

Met a few racists in the army in my time. They are there.

I agree.

 

[loofkar]

During a break at camp in the 10 Para recruit cadre, one of the instructor corporals not from our unit (North Finchley), who had an oop north accent, suddenly gave an unsolicited speech to our group, in relation to the one black guy in our group. His speech included graphic references to the need to prevent a situation where we'd have "chimpanzees" on guard outside the palace.
Our black guy weathered it and as far as I remember, no one said or did anything about it, which I feel ashamed of.

During the months I was in the unit I never heard any other racist comments (except for our likeable but not very bright Gimpy-ist, a chap from Canvey Island, whom one night, as he and I stagged on with our pickaxe handles told me "I don't mind the Paaakistaaaanis, it's the Aiiiiisians I can't stand.....". Idi Amin's expulsion of the Asians had been in the news a lot - I suspect the guy had never heard of the word "Asian" before that.

 

[Tommy_Sun]

So racial abus6is character-buikding and therefore acceptable?

Don't remember saying anything about racial abuse.

Apart from some blokes in a Securicor depot in Kent calling one of their mates 'Chico Mendez' for growing a Mexican style moustache.

I suppose that might be seen as racist. But then again, you can't have it both ways. It's not possible for a white man to be 'racist' towards a Hispanic/Mexican because they are also classed as 'White' - just look at the FBI statistics!

I'm not being flippant here. Latinos/Latinas are classified as Caucasian in all those reports. And good luck with trying to tell a Mexican he looks 'Black' - then you will come to know real 'racism'.

Besides, our chap there in the deepest darkest depot in Kent, was in fact 'White'. So I still don't see how it could be 'racist'. I guess you can always find a way if you look hard enough.

Racial abuse is wrong. There's a time and a place for it. For banter I mean. But 'abuse' as such is wrong. That's why it's called abuse. But many people get abused every day, causing them great trauma, but it never gets as far as someone taking responsibility for it. Usually, the abuser will be someone in a position of true power, who knows the person they abuse can not kick back. I just got abused by my bank - the TSB. Left me on the verge of suicide after being suicidal for many years. Sought out greater advice, got it, yes, you have been abused, these people must pay for what they have done to you. Could I get someone to take it on? Can I afford physicallly, mentally, financially to take it on? No. Time to move on.

Abuse comes in many forms. We all know when it's unsavoury.

I was working the skip one day in St.John'sWood. By where all the Jar Head yanks had a base. Didn't like me and my long hair. Happened to have a black girlfriend at the time. No one at work knew. Didn't hide it. Didn't broadcast it.

Cockney lad kicks off about a blonde blue eyed bird that gets walked home every day by her black boyfriend. Or 'n***er' boyfriend as he called him. My blood rose. "So what about me going home to my 'n***er' girlfriend?". Fight.

I choose my battles well. But that was a good one. Bit of fisticuffs till I got sacked the next day. No biggie.

So I don't tend to like people who have hate in their heart. But I'm more than happy to crack up laughing when my black and half-black mates go on about '******* Niggers this', '******* Niggers that'. Taking the piss out of racists. Some who happened to be our good friends, believe it or not. They even mimicked a Cockney accent perfectly. Banter? Who knows? I think it went beyond that to some other place of higher metaphysical comedy, that I still can't explain to this day. A white racist, in full view, in a room full of black people, using the 'N' word? And them all cracking up in hysterics. I think context and intent is the trick here.

Some people are ignorant, and some people are malicious. And most people can tell the difference.

I know that some people see me as a racist for using the 'N' word. But it's ingrained in to me. I grew up around black people and used that word around them.

But I also see those that call me a race-traitor for having a black girlfriend, and not tolerating their use of the 'N' word when it is used maliciously.

I ******* despise racists. And their pitiful black hearts. But I also understand why it's probably not a good idea to flood a country with a totally different demographic that will not integrate. Many people like to conflate the two. I make the distinction.

I want to be able to go back in to my group of black friends and interact with them with a clean conscience. But I've known a few black racists too, btw - maybe for another day that one.


To answer your question: No racial abuse is never acceptable and it's never character building. When it's true racial abuse.

I read the other day in the news they are banning people from wearing Sombreros to fancy dress partys now. "Chico Mendez" probably isn't happy.

Whatever next? Stopping people from eating Leeks because it's just taking the piss out of the Welsh?

We aren't special little snowflakes. We can take it. Don't pretend to speak for me.



There probably is a fine line between banter and harassment. But most decent people know where that line is drawn.

 

[Tommy_Sun]

I agree.

They are everywhere.

And they are just as likely to have black skin as white.

Or brown... yellow...

 

[Tommy_Sun]

These coloured people are, and have been for a very long time, protected and valued members of our society, which is why I consider complaints that specify a whole unit was racist to an individual probably spurious, and most likely fuelled to some extent by the possibility of substantial compensation.

You do realise use of the word 'coloured' is racist right?

Not joking.

Well, it is funny.

My black girlfriend always gave a little chuckle and stabbed my ribs when someone described her as 'coloured'. She saw them as closet racists. But she also understood it probably had no malicious intent. She just loved watching 'White' people squirm and try to reach for the right epithet.

She wasn't 'coloured' she was 'Black as the Ace of Spades'. At least, that is how she used to describe herself. Was she a racist? I don't think so. She had a 'White' boyfriend for one. Her sister had a 'White' boyfriend (who was a Copper funnily enough). And her brother had a 'White' wife with whom he had beautiful coffee 'Coloured' kids.

She saw the racism all around. But she rose above it. And so did I. We really got some shit going to some partys I tell you, and no, not partys held by 'White' people. Who were always very very polite, though they did use the word 'Coloured' now and again. One of them even called her a 'Negro'. We cracked up about that one for days after. No abuse, no banter, just the wrong word at the wrong time by someone trying to be so 'right on'. LOL.

She faced it full on and with good humor. Pretty hard to banter or bully a girl like that.

And a lot of my other black girlfriends were like that too.

She could give you banter mate. Full on Cockney Chav, to the most upper class cut-glass Posh accent you can imagine. Oh, and a good bit of Jamaican Patois learned from her mum. Who was actually a very decent hard-working lady who took great pride in cleaning the Operating Theatres of the hospital she used to work in so no one got any infections. Good people.

You wouldn't know what banter was until you called her 'Coloured'!

And always with a good heart.

I do miss her. (does it show?)


And if she really liked you, she'd pull out the 'N' word just to see your face.

Banter?

Abuse?


Just don't say that she's 'Coloured', yeah?

 

[Tommy_Sun]

During a break at camp in the 10 Para recruit cadre, one of the instructor corporals not from our unit (North Finchley), who had an oop north accent, suddenly gave an unsolicited speech to our group, in relation to the one black guy in our group. His speech included graphic references to the need to prevent a situation where we'd have "chimpanzees" on guard outside the palace.
Our black guy whethered it and as far as I remember, no one said or did anything about it, which I feel ashamed of.

During the months I was in the unit I never heard any other racist comments (except for our likeable but not very bright Gimpy-ist, a chap from Canvey Island, whom one night, as he and I stagged on with our pickaxe handles told me "I don't mind the Paaakistaaaanis, it's the Aiiiiisians I can't stand.....". Idi Amin's expulsion of the Asians had been in the news a lot - I suspect the guy had never heard of the word "Asian" before that.

We've all seen true racism and bullying and not been in positions to do anything about it.

Me? Only on civvy street of course. I'm sure much worse went on in other places.

But what balls, a person must have to go in to that arena. To go in to there in the first place, but to go in as a black man. He would have had some idea what awaited him. And I'm sure he wasn't disappointed. And I'm sure a few of his 'brethren' would not have liked that either - how he was treated. And every bit of shit he soaked up just got him that little bit more respect.

But a dangerous situation. It might have been seen as a green light to some to continue the BS.

Hopefully he made it through.

Fast forward a few years...

Sitting on a bar stool in a pub in Camden. Couple of hot blondes by your side.

Well dressed. Smelling good. Cool air of indifference and quiet confidence.

"So, what you do then?"

'This and that, you know'

"Come on, you must do something"

'Well I'm ex British Army'

"No way!"

'Yeah'

"What did you do?"

'I was in the Parachute Regiment'

"No ******* way..."

'Yeah'

"So you dropped out of planes like in the dead of night..."

'They never saw me coming baby!'

"Howls"



Eh eh.

And every minute and every bit of pain was worth it.

Earned.



"We don't believe you - you could just be making it all up!"

'Lifts shirt'

"Swoon"

 

[redshift]

At the end of the day, why should anyone give a f-k about someone's skin color? It's all nature in play and where they were born. Just give a damn about their performance, work ethic and decent behavior.

That's it. It's not difficult to grasp your head around it.

 

[loofkar]

At the end of the day, why should anyone give a f-k about someone's skin color? It's all nature in play and where they were born. Just give a damn about their performance, work ethic and decent behavior.

That's it. It's not difficult to grasp your head around it.

grasping one's head around anything sounds somewhat difficult

 

[redshift]

grasping one's head around anything sounds somewhat difficult

Should've been wrap your head around it.

Still bleary eyed.

 

[A signaller]

ATTENTION, anybody reading this, I have posted in the wrong thread, it should be in the "BUGSY "thread. ( Michael Collins and Irish independence) the MODS have been informed, sorry chaps!

We watched 3 documentary's, one on letters sent to the BBC from west Berlin,, and 2 about life behind the wall last night 7-11-2019 on BBC4. 20.00-23.30 hrs.

The first concentrated on the BBC's overseas broadcasts, specifically " Letters without signatures" which had east Germans, mostly in berlin, writing to the BBC, Via PO boxes in west berlin, the letters went through the wall, and were sorted, and sent to the UK via the diplomatic bag, those picked for transmission, were read out on air, with pertinent comments and observations by the announcer, who also travelled to east berlin on trade missions. The STASI considered him east Germanys top enemy NO 1. The contents of the letters all held the same views, lack of freedom, to travel, food shortages, and the depressing mental anguish suffered by a totalitarian regime. In essence, the BBC were doing the same job it done during the last war, broadcasting to occupied country's. The STASI went to great lengths to find the letter writers, and when caught, 2 years in prison,........... for writing a letter!

The second was about the fall off the wall, and why it was built, the third longer documentary focused on the wall, and its effects on east Germans, how it effected several different people, one who was banged up for criticising the regime , and on release, build a tunnel which helped 49 people escape to the west, as he said " I beat the STASI, I won" also shown was the storming of STASI headquarters, where records of 6,000,000 people were kept,. During a live TV broadcast, the moment in east berlin, a incompetent official faltered, and when asked when travel restrictions were to be eased, instead of saying slowly over a period of time, said "immediately" within minutes crowds started to gather at the check points and all along the wall, the rest is history. It also covered individuals who became figure heads in the intellectual and art world, one who was highly respected by his followers, and unwittingly became a STASI stooge, and consequently, was hated and despised for many years after reunification.

The whole 90 minutes was very evenly divided between the relatively good side of living in east berlin, as one chap commented, " In the west they have 30 types of cheese, we only have 3, and only one tastes good" and the down side in one part of east berlin, crumbling tenement blocks, pot holed and rubbish infested streets, then Ariel shots of well laid out public amenity's, and row upon row of grey concrete workers flats. The commentary informed us that there was 24 more times STASI than there was GESTAPO during the war, per thousand people, and that like wartime, every one was suspect of being a STASI agent, or informer.

A very thought provoking 2.5 hours of excellent BBC TV, and no bloody adverts. END.

 

[The_Duke]

ATTENTION, anybody reading this, I have posted in the wrong thread, it should be in the "BUGSY "thread. ( Michael Collins and Irish independence) the MODS have been informed, sorry chaps!

We watched 2 documentary's on letters sent to the BBC from west Berlin,, and life behind the wall last night 7-11-2019 on BBC4. 21.00-23.30 hrs.

The first concentrated on the BBC's overseas broadcasts, specifically " Letters without signatures" which had east Germans, mostly in berlin, writing to the BBC, Via PO boxes in west berlin, the letters went through the wall, and were sorted, and sent to the UK via the diplomatic bag, those picked for transmission, were read out on air, with pertinent comments and observations by the announcer, who also travelled to east berlin on trade missions. The STASI considered him east Germanys top enemy NO 1. The contents of the letters all held the same views, lack of freedom, to travel, food shortages, and the depressing mental anguish suffered by a totalitarian regime. In essence, the BBC were doing the same job it done during the last war, broadcasting to occupied country's. The STASI went to great lengths to find the letter writers, and when caught, 2 years in prison,........... for writing a letter!

The second longer documentary focused on the wall, and its effects on east Germans, how it effected several different people, one who was banged up for criticising the regime , and on release, helped a tunnel which helped 49 people escape to the west, as he said " I beat the STASI, I won" also shown was the storming of STASI headquarters, where records of 6,000,000 people were kept,. During a live TV broadcast, the moment in east berlin, a incompetent official faltered, and when asked when travel restrictions were to be eased, instead of saying slowly over a period of time, said "immediately" within minutes crowds started to gather at the check points and all along the wall, the rest is history. It also covered individuals who became figure heads in the intellectual and art world, one who was highly respected by his followers, and unwittingly became a STASI stooge, and consequently, was hated and despised for many years after reunification.

The whole 90 minutes was very evenly divided between the relatively good side of living in east berlin, as one chap commented, " In the west they have 30 types of cheese, we only have 3, and only one tastes good" and the down side in one part of east berlin, crumbling tenement blocks, pot holed and rubbish infested streets, then Ariel shots of well laid out public amenity's, and row upon row of grey concrete workers flats. The commentary informed us that there was 24 more times STASI than there was GESTAPO during the war, per thousand people, and that like wartime, every one was suspect of being a STASI agent, or informer.

A very thought provoking 2.5 hours of excellent BBC TV, and no bloody adverts. END.

You do have the ability to delete your own posts. You could even copy it to paste again into the correct thread, if you really wanted to.

 

[Auld-Yin]

We've all seen true racism and bullying and not been in positions to do anything about it.

Me? Only on civvy street of course. I'm sure much worse went on in other places.

But what balls, a person must have to go in to that arena. To go in to there in the first place, but to go in as a black man. He would have had some idea what awaited him. And I'm sure he wasn't disappointed. And I'm sure a few of his 'brethren' would not have liked that either - how he was treated. And every bit of shit he soaked up just got him that little bit more respect.

But a dangerous situation. It might have been seen as a green light to some to continue the BS.

Hopefully he made it through.

Fast forward a few years...

Sitting on a bar stool in a pub in Camden. Couple of hot blondes by your side.

Well dressed. Smelling good. Cool air of indifference and quiet confidence.

"So, what you do then?"

'This and that, you know'

"Come on, you must do something"

'Well I'm ex British Army'

"No way!"

'Yeah'

"What did you do?"

'I was in the Parachute Regiment'

"No ******* way..."

'Yeah'

"So you dropped out of planes like in the dead of night..."

'They never saw me coming baby!'

"Howls"



Eh eh.

And every minute and every bit of pain was worth it.

Earned.



"We don't believe you - you could just be making it all up!"

'Lifts shirt'

"Swoon"

Mike Golden walt!

 

[A signaller]

You do have the ability to delete your own posts. You could even copy it to paste again into the correct thread, if you really wanted to.

Thank you, I don't know how to do that, my knowledge is limited. I am aware of the delete function, its the post and paste function I have no knowledge of.

 

[windswept398]

I would encourage anyone who has had enough of it to punch the banterer-in-chief full in the face. Shouting “B-A-N-T-E-R” as they so do.

Best advice ever.

 

[Chalkster69]

Unfortunately they are every where, in the mob, some hide behind their rank, I bumped into a few.

Memory jog: - Field exercise in BAOR, early hours of the morning, in a pitch black, Teutonic forest, one lad who had been on the receiving end of some nasty put downs, vindictive banter, and continual verbal diarrhoea, from a NCO, waited behind a tree, as the NCO emerged from the back of a radio wagon, and walked towards him, a rifle butt connected with his face, all in the pitch blackness. The hierarchy never found out who it was, but we knew, and why.

We had a couple of instances of Jerrycans falling off of wagons onto unloved NCO's.

So sad....

 

[overopensights]

ATTENTION, anybody reading this, I have posted in the wrong thread, it should be in the "BUGSY "thread. ( Michael Collins and Irish independence) the MODS have been informed, sorry chaps!

We watched 3 documentary's, one on letters sent to the BBC from west Berlin,, and 2 about life behind the wall last night 7-11-2019 on BBC4. 20.00-23.30 hrs.

The first concentrated on the BBC's overseas broadcasts, specifically " Letters without signatures" which had east Germans, mostly in berlin, writing to the BBC, Via PO boxes in west berlin, the letters went through the wall, and were sorted, and sent to the UK via the diplomatic bag, those picked for transmission, were read out on air, with pertinent comments and observations by the announcer, who also travelled to east berlin on trade missions. The STASI considered him east Germanys top enemy NO 1. The contents of the letters all held the same views, lack of freedom, to travel, food shortages, and the depressing mental anguish suffered by a totalitarian regime. In essence, the BBC were doing the same job it done during the last war, broadcasting to occupied country's. The STASI went to great lengths to find the letter writers, and when caught, 2 years in prison,........... for writing a letter!

The second was about the fall off the wall, and why it was built, the third longer documentary focused on the wall, and its effects on east Germans, how it effected several different people, one who was banged up for criticising the regime , and on release, build a tunnel which helped 49 people escape to the west, as he said " I beat the STASI, I won" also shown was the storming of STASI headquarters, where records of 6,000,000 people were kept,. During a live TV broadcast, the moment in east berlin, a incompetent official faltered, and when asked when travel restrictions were to be eased, instead of saying slowly over a period of time, said "immediately" within minutes crowds started to gather at the check points and all along the wall, the rest is history. It also covered individuals who became figure heads in the intellectual and art world, one who was highly respected by his followers, and unwittingly became a STASI stooge, and consequently, was hated and despised for many years after reunification.

The whole 90 minutes was very evenly divided between the relatively good side of living in east berlin, as one chap commented, " In the west they have 30 types of cheese, we only have 3, and only one tastes good" and the down side in one part of east berlin, crumbling tenement blocks, pot holed and rubbish infested streets, then Ariel shots of well laid out public amenity's, and row upon row of grey concrete workers flats. The commentary informed us that there was 24 more times STASI than there was GESTAPO during the war, per thousand people, and that like wartime, every one was suspect of being a STASI agent, or informer.

A very thought provoking 2.5 hours of excellent BBC TV, and no bloody adverts. END.

It's 30 years now! perhaps a release of docs and archives under the 30 year rule. I just want to see the Stasis take on Corbyn, they must have a file on him, he spent six months in East Berlin with Abbot, I hope they have a few shots of him giving her one! preferably from the rear and in colour!

 

[Turret_Monster]

Interesting story developing here on where edgy banter crosses over the line into abuse and harassment in the workplace.

It crosses the line when the recipient decides they’ve had enough, but the protagonists decide to press on regardless It’s that simple.

 

[Turret_Monster]

It's 30 years now! perhaps a release of docs and archives under the 30 year rule. I just want to see the Stasis take on Corbyn, they must have a file on him, he spent six months in East Berlin with Abbot, I hope they have a few shots of him giving her one! preferably from the rear and in colour!

I thought it was black this week?

 

[Gravelbelly]

1. people lie and especially to themselves.
2. banter that crosses the line is very clear to all.
3. That which bestrides this line, is because those aggrieved were likely as not doling it out themselves, not long before.

1. Yes, absolutely. "We were just having a laugh" being the obvious one.
2. Yes - except that in my experience, when "everyone" realizes that they've clearly "crossed the line", they're wrong - they actually crossed it a long, long time before.
3. Have you considered that the line can move? Some days, you can take it, water off a ducks back. Other days, other hours, exactly the same thing can really f***ing hurt.

I avoid banter, because I'm painfully aware that being on the receiving end often isn't fun. Those who suggest "just smack them in the mouth" are all very well for the true internet hero, but fairly f***ing useless advice if there are several of them, and they're all mates with each other. When does having three or four people tapdance on your head become worth it?

I suspect that for every tale of "yeah, we made his life hell until he snapped, then we respected him and he had a laugh with us all afterwards", there's rather more "yeah, we made his life hell, the pathetic little wimp, then we did it some more, because it was a f***ing laugh". As you say, people lie, and especially to themselves.