The territorial support group

#1
Was impressed with them during the riots a while back giving some hippy parasites a good slap.

and have heard them mentioned on here before

from wiki:

Officers in the TSG have faced criticism about their policing methods and complaints have been made against officers of the TSG.[5]

One ex-Metropolitan Police officer suggested that TSG members, "spend (their) days waiting for action, and far too many officers join seeking excitement and physical confrontation." Some officers are ex-military personnel and these are "the worst bullies" as "the laws of the battlefield are not appropriate to the streets of our capital".

The forerunner of the group, the Special Patrol Group, was implicated in the death of Blair Peach.

In 2003, six officers of the TSG performed what a judge in 2009 called a "serious, gratuitous and prolonged" assault on a terrorist suspect, Babar Ahmed, a 34-year-old IT support analyst who was not subsequently charged with any offence.[7] The officers involved had already been the subject of as many as 60 complaints about unwarranted assaults against other men.[8] A number of mail sacks containing these complaints were somehow lost.[9]. The accusations were investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission[10] but that they were found to be unsubstantiated. No charges were bought against the officers and five of the six were still members of the TSG in 2009.[8] Babar Ahmed was later awarded £60,000 compensation, by the High Court, for the assault.[7]

In 2005 a Kurdish youth recorded an officer on his mobile phone telling him "If you say one more fucking word, I'll smash your fucking Arab face in" after he was stopped near Paddington Green police station.[11] The officer was suspended but denied the charge.[12]

Another investigation into six other officers of the TSG by the IPCC was launched following allegations made by three men that they were racially abused during an incident during June 2007 in Paddington.[13] The officers appeared in court in December 2008 and were prosecuted; two for racially abusing the men, four of misconduct in a public office and one of racially-aggravated assault.[14] The Guardian reported that a request may have been made to restrict reporting of the trial by the media.[15]

During the 2009 G-20 London summit protests two officers of the TSG were suspended from duty following publication of videos which recorded alleged assaults on members of the public at the 2009 G-20 London summit protests and at a subsequent memorial.[16] In the first case, the member of the public, Ian Tomlinson, died shortly afterwards. In the second case, Sgt Delroy (Tony) Smellie was seen hitting Nicola Fisher. Following her complaint, the Crown Prosecution Service announced in September 2009, that there was sufficient evidence to charge Sgt Smellie with assault. He will appear in court on November 16, 2009.[17]

Video evidence shows that the officer seen hitting Ian Tomlinson had his face covered[18] and that the officers involved in both cases were not displaying their identification numbers.[16] Following the investigation into police handling of the protest, the human rights group Liberty called for further study of what it referred to as the "militaristic approach" used by the TSG.

[edit] Academic Response
The TSG and their predecessors, the SPG, have been likened to paramilitary units during riot control operations by Tony Jefferson in the The Case against Paramilitary Policing (1990). He argues this because of their use of shields, batons and helmets, their centralised command structure, their willingness to use force and being deployed in squad like formations. P. Waddington counters his conclusion in the British Journal of Criminology by pointing out that their equipment is mainly defensive. As employees, the police force have a duty to protect them from harm, he also notes that paramedics in riot situations also wear similar helmets and armour. Jefferson argues that by the police preparing for an event, such as a march or protest where they expect there to be violence, they create a self-fulfilling prophecy and that violence will occur. Waddington responds to this by pointing out that the TSG were deployed at the Notting Hill Carnival every year and yet there was not always violence. Jefferson also believes that by controlling the ground the TSG incites violence, Waddington cites examples (including the Battle of the Beanfield) where problems were caused by the police not controlling the ground and that when they have then tried to gain control violence ensued. Waddington states that if the presence of the TSG caused violence, then violence would not occur if they were not deployed. Waddington uses examples from three Poll Tax Riots to illustrate that the assumption that their deployment causes violence is not correct. When the TSG were not deployed, serious disorder occurred, including a fully-fledged riot. In contrast when the TSG, including specialists in riot control, were deployed there was less violence. What is more he found that the more the police planned for the 'worst case scenario' the less disorder there was. When they controlled the space and the crowd was at its greatest, violence was lowest. Waddington states that whilst the deployment of the TSG in a riot situation is never desirable it is often essential to maintain order and limit violence. That said he also believes that the use of force should be as minimal as possible and that it should only be used to achieve publicly acceptable purposes.
Sound like a good bunch of lads.

Anyone that pissed off the Shami Shakrabati mafia gets my blessing.

So should we expand the TSG to give more criminals a kicking? And can Dorset Police set up their own branch? In fact, make them go country wide. :twisted:
 
#2
Used to drink with a couple of these guys and they were sound.
The work life seemed pretty cool too, much time off out of the way, brought in to live in the gym for a couple of weeks, taken out of the box when there was a direct threat or reason. Then kept locked in the back of a van until the usual plod had either sorted everything out or failed to sort everything out at which point the van doors were opened and the big dogs were let out.
Que much more time off work whilst the paperwork was done for the heads they cracked.

Might be a bit expensive to have these chaps sitting about so much but when things are too out of hand for your local PCSOs or 12yr old rozzers to fix it's nice to know that some massive uniformed ugliness can be put to work.
Im pretty sure they do a lot more stuff we never hear about with a lot nastier folk than the occasional crusty or lefty journo.
 
#3
harareboy99 said:
Was impressed with them during the riots a while back giving some hippy parasites a good slap.

and have heard them mentioned on here before

from wiki
Officers in the TSG have faced criticism about their policing methods and complaints have been made against officers of the TSG.[5]

One ex-Metropolitan Police officer suggested that TSG members, "spend (their) days waiting for action, and far too many officers join seeking excitement and physical confrontation." Some officers are ex-military personnel and these are "the worst bullies" as "the laws of the battlefield are not appropriate to the streets of our capital".

The forerunner of the group, the Special Patrol Group, was implicated in the death of Blair Peach.

In 2003, six officers of the TSG performed what a judge in 2009 called a "serious, gratuitous and prolonged" assault on a terrorist suspect, Babar Ahmed, a 34-year-old IT support analyst who was not subsequently charged with any offence.[7] The officers involved had already been the subject of as many as 60 complaints about unwarranted assaults against other men.[8] A number of mail sacks containing these complaints were somehow lost.[9]. The accusations were investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission[10] but that they were found to be unsubstantiated. No charges were bought against the officers and five of the six were still members of the TSG in 2009.[8] Babar Ahmed was later awarded £60,000 compensation, by the High Court, for the assault.[7]

In 2005 a Kurdish youth recorded an officer on his mobile phone telling him "If you say one more * word, I'll smash your * Arab face in" after he was stopped near Paddington Green police station.[11] The officer was suspended but denied the charge.[12]

Another investigation into six other officers of the TSG by the IPCC was launched following allegations made by three men that they were racially abused during an incident during June 2007 in Paddington.[13] The officers appeared in court in December 2008 and were prosecuted; two for racially abusing the men, four of misconduct in a public office and one of racially-aggravated assault.[14] The Guardian reported that a request may have been made to restrict reporting of the trial by the media.[15]

During the 2009 G-20 London summit protests two officers of the TSG were suspended from duty following publication of videos which recorded alleged assaults on members of the public at the 2009 G-20 London summit protests and at a subsequent memorial.[16] In the first case, the member of the public, Ian Tomlinson, died shortly afterwards. In the second case, Sgt Delroy (Tony) Smellie was seen hitting Nicola Fisher. Following her complaint, the Crown Prosecution Service announced in September 2009, that there was sufficient evidence to charge Sgt Smellie with assault. He will appear in court on November 16, 2009.[17]

Video evidence shows that the officer seen hitting Ian Tomlinson had his face covered[18] and that the officers involved in both cases were not displaying their identification numbers.[16] Following the investigation into police handling of the protest, the human rights group Liberty called for further study of what it referred to as the "militaristic approach" used by the TSG.

[edit] Academic Response
The TSG and their predecessors, the SPG, have been likened to paramilitary units during riot control operations by Tony Jefferson in the The Case against Paramilitary Policing (1990). He argues this because of their use of shields, batons and helmets, their centralised command structure, their willingness to use force and being deployed in squad like formations. P. Waddington counters his conclusion in the British Journal of Criminology by pointing out that their equipment is mainly defensive. As employees, the police force have a duty to protect them from harm, he also notes that paramedics in riot situations also wear similar helmets and armour. Jefferson argues that by the police preparing for an event, such as a march or protest where they expect there to be violence, they create a self-fulfilling prophecy and that violence will occur. Waddington responds to this by pointing out that the TSG were deployed at the Notting Hill Carnival every year and yet there was not always violence. Jefferson also believes that by controlling the ground the TSG incites violence, Waddington cites examples (including the Battle of the Beanfield) where problems were caused by the police not controlling the ground and that when they have then tried to gain control violence ensued. Waddington states that if the presence of the TSG caused violence, then violence would not occur if they were not deployed. Waddington uses examples from three Poll Tax Riots to illustrate that the assumption that their deployment causes violence is not correct. When the TSG were not deployed, serious disorder occurred, including a fully-fledged riot. In contrast when the TSG, including specialists in riot control, were deployed there was less violence. What is more he found that the more the police planned for the 'worst case scenario' the less disorder there was. When they controlled the space and the crowd was at its greatest, violence was lowest. Waddington states that whilst the deployment of the TSG in a riot situation is never desirable it is often essential to maintain order and limit violence. That said he also believes that the use of force should be as minimal as possible and that it should only be used to achieve publicly acceptable purposes.
Sound like a good bunch of lads.

Anyone that pissed off the Shami Shakrabati mafia gets my blessing.

So should we expand the TSG to give more criminals a kicking? And can Dorset Police set up their own branch? In fact, make them go country wide. :twisted:
Like the French CRS? Gets my vote! 8) :twisted: :D
 
#4
The CRS are much more 'nails' they are proper para-military..live in barracks, get to use CS/water cannon on a much more regular basis, are armed and don't seem constrained by the Brit. love of furry cuddly creatures...
 
#5
BlueDanubeWalt said:
The CRS are much more 'nails' they are proper para-military..live in barracks, get to use CS/water cannon on a much more regular basis, are armed and don't seem constrained by the Brit. love of furry cuddly creatures...
Some of the lads on here who served in BAOR remember the old West German riot police; every one of them seemed to be two metres tall and built like Arnold back in his glory days. And with more kit than the average Infantry company! 8O 8)

IIRC, it used to be possible to do National Service in West Germany with the Riot Police instead of the Army. As long as you met the RP's standards.

Anyone who sets up a British version of the CRS will be in danger of being trampled by the rush of ARRSEr's trying to sign up! :D
 
#6
harareboy99 said:
Was impressed with them during the riots a while back giving some hippy parasites a good slap.
I seem to recall you mentioning you were a student? And a Zimbabwean immigrant?

Quel ironique.
 
#7
Werewolf said:
BlueDanubeWalt said:
The CRS are much more 'nails' they are proper para-military..live in barracks, get to use CS/water cannon on a much more regular basis, are armed and don't seem constrained by the Brit. love of furry cuddly creatures...
Some of the lads on here who served in BAOR remember the old West German riot police; every one of them seemed to be two metres tall and built like Arnold back in his glory days. And with more kit than the average Infantry company! 8O 8)

IIRC, it used to be possible to do National Service in West Germany with the Riot Police instead of the Army. As long as you met the RP's standards.

Anyone who sets up a British version of the CRS will be in danger of being trampled by the rush of ARRSEr's trying to sign up! :D
Consisting of mainly 5'6" 'chippy' ex-para Jocks
 
#8
Sounds like top fun.

The Spanish plod have a great trick - when a football riot kicks off they pre-emptively put a CS grenade into every pub nearby to "discourage" others from joining in. Sucks if you're an innocent out for hangover scran though :puker:

(edited for spac-hands)
 
#9
Hmmm the TSG....

Know lots of them actually. I don't think they attract ex squaddies in any greater numbers than any other part of the job and apart from being allowed two hours a day in the gym when not on commissioners its not that much different to the rest of the police.

Some units are better than others (as you would expect) and they need strong leadership, but given the nature of what they do its hardly surprising they attract complaints. Very fit boys and girls though, with a surprising love of doing stupid things for "charidy mate"

Trotsky
 
#10
The "Academic Response" makes for an interesting read though - almost supportive of TSG tactics, especially in riot situations.
 
#11
Disney said:
Used to drink with a couple of these guys and they were sound.
The work life seemed pretty cool too, much time off out of the way, brought in to live in the gym for a couple of weeks, taken out of the box when there was a direct threat or reason. Then kept locked in the back of a van until the usual plod had either sorted everything out or failed to sort everything out at which point the van doors were opened and the big dogs were let out.
Que much more time off work whilst the paperwork was done for the heads they cracked.

Might be a bit expensive to have these chaps sitting about so much but when things are too out of hand for your local PCSOs or 12yr old rozzers to fix it's nice to know that some massive uniformed ugliness can be put to work.
Im pretty sure they do a lot more stuff we never hear about with a lot nastier folk than the occasional crusty or lefty journo.


They don't just "sit about" when not needed in a public [dis]order situation. Their work is very varied actually. They work in small numbers targeting hotspots, working proactively with lots of stop and search and so on....amongst other stuff, my borough often has a carrier floating about. It's just that the "riot police" bit gets picked up by the media whereas the other stuff isn't as intersting.

I've always found them to be very professional police officers that are extremely good at their job.
 
#12
DarkBlueLoggie said:
The "Academic Response" makes for an interesting read though - almost supportive of TSG tactics, especially in riot situations.
Proffesor Waddington has done some really interesting stuff on Public Order policing and has spent a huge amount of time on the ground with the Met during both peaceful and violent incidents. Never heard of the other one though.
 
#13
smartascarrots said:
harareboy99 said:
Was impressed with them during the riots a while back giving some hippy parasites a good slap.
I seem to recall you mentioning you were a student? And a Zimbabwean immigrant?

Quel ironique.
You're jumping well up the wrong tree fella.

I don't need to justify myself to you, but im neither an immigrant or a student.
 
#14
I'm on the Taffplod equivalent and it's not a bad number though, due to the fact not a lot happens down here in Welsh Wales, my lot have had to diversify into other jobs such as advanced door bashing, and searching but it's not a bad number and very similar levels of cameradery and team working as I used to enjoy in the mob.

By it's very nature the TSG (and it's county equivalents) do attract a lot of complaints as they are generally deployed to deal with violence, and violence sometimes has to be used. An organisation like the Mets TSG must get boat loads of them due to the size of the department and the population it deals with.

Though we're all in trouble once Western gets here! He hates the Met more than shami does. ;)
 
P

PrinceAlbert

Guest
#15
A mate I drink with is TSG, and an instructor at Hendon. He's a good guy, a bit "physical" after a few pints, and a bit intense sometimes.

After chatting to him about his job I can understand why they have to work and train the way they do.

That said, they do enjoy a ruck.
 
#16
Well done Trotsky & Seagull for dispelling the myths

TSG are keenly 'bid' for at Borough morning prayers by Senior Management Teams for a multitude of roles.

A significant proportion are surveillance and /or firearms & Taser trained (Legion Patrols)

They retain strong links with PSNI TSG, which evolved from the old RUC MSU's

On the whole, I find them articulate and switched on individuals.
Yes, they have a window set aside for training, but this is incorporated into their tour of duty

Regards,

Patchett44
 
#17
PrinceAlbert said:
A mate I drink with is TSG, and an instructor at Hendon. He's a good guy, a bit "physical" after a few pints, and a bit intense sometimes.

After chatting to him about his job I can understand why they have to work and train the way they do.

That said, they do enjoy a ruck.
so a Sore hoop for you in the mornings after the 'pints 'n' ruck'.... :wink:
 
#18
PrinceAlbert said:
A mate I drink with is TSG, and an instructor at Hendon. He's a good guy, a bit "physical" after a few pints, and a bit intense sometimes.

After chatting to him about his job I can understand why they have to work and train the way they do.

That said, they do enjoy a ruck.
He'd be better suited as an instructor at Gravesend, with the rest of the public order branch, at the public order training centre!
 
#19
harareboy99 said:
You're jumping well up the wrong tree fella.

I don't need to justify myself to you, but im neither an immigrant or a student.
Oh yes, that's right. I keep forgetting.

harareboy99 said:
Im completely different. Both my parents are British. I am British by birth.

Being born in a barn doesn't make you a horse.
At least you have the good grace to admit that being born in Britain doesn't make you British. Do you have anything else you'd like to (unilaterally) declare?
 

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