The Sun Does it again

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#1
I have just sat and watched the footage of that young lad in the Gas Chamber in Winchester.

I cant believe the amount of fuss being generated by such footage, having gone through this myself I remember the experience as being pretty horrible yes but hardly abusive. And as far as the comment about "This is Corpral ***** palace of fun" big deal if young squaddies want to cry to mummy about such incidents they should seriously think about the hardships endured when on tour before joining up.

And my last point is why oh whwy are people still filming this stuff, surely they must see the harm that this can cause when let out into the public domain. Civvies just dont get the army sense of humour.
 
#2
Another thread about this has already been locked......

ve knoo nuffink! Uns ve vill say nuffink until zer Polizi haf their vild beatings of zer zuspect finoiten!
 
#3
2 questions...

1st, Why would an NCO, with half a brain film something like that, in that way? What was he thinking?

2nd, How did that ever get out into the public domain? What was he thinking?

I think that the Corporal is a nob and deserves all that he got for both of the above.

But I agree, we all were subject to that (the gas chamber) and it did us no harm. I think it was to instil faith in the resperator/IPE system.

The second lad held out really well though.

Its very hard for civilians to identify with the training.

Training now is nothing compared to how it used to be. Thank god there were no video-mobile phones then!!!

Still it sells papers and thats all that matters, right???
 
#5
At least 2 other threads on this subject have already been locked.

Please, no further comment on this subject as per the site rules.
 
#6
"Random" application of site rules

"Bootneck roll mats" wasn't censored, neither was "spy girl" or "riot beaters"

Beware Mod power is brushing off in rumration where Jenny Dabber is closing down threads she can't keep up with
 
#8
Was written in the Scum as if he was some kind of lunatic shouting and bawling at everyone. IMHO it looks like it was all said in fun. As soon as the first guy has had enough he gets him out. I have to say I experianced things similar to this during my TA recruits course. The DS asking you to repeat your number "sorry I missed that" that kind of stuff. I considered it to be quite tame really. Yes he does laugh at them, so did I. If "Pearson" and " Grant" have anything about them they would have been laughing about it too. It does seem abit of an error of judgement to have filmed this though. Just asking for trouble
 
#9
At the risk of dating myself, I remember doing that test in the Mk 1 suit (WTF was that separate hood all about?) having done a two-mile approach march in state 2 so that we were all equipped with betty swallocks. the mask off time was largely irrelevant as we were all suffering nicely thank you very much just by standing there in a suit that let it all hang in. Did we complain, did we fcuk. It was all part of the game.

Why can't Newton-Dung get his tiny head around that fact?
 
#10
theoriginalphantom said:
At least 2 other threads on this subject have already been locked.

Please, no further comment on this subject as per the site rules.
I bet you were bullied at school. You really want to be a MOD don't you.
 
#11
Any one got a link to the video? ive not seen it, but feel like a giggle


edited to say- im an tinternet mong and just found the video link

Was that it!!!!!! FFS Andy Mc'would sell my grandmother tosspot'Nabb what a load of kack, that is an important NBC lesson!
 
#12
That vid looks just the same as anything I had to do in basic. It got my NBC drills squared away nicely I can tell you that !!!!! I see the scum has wheeled out Andy McCash to pour even more scorn on the whole exersize.

LT.
 
#13
Another harmless incident being blown out of proportion.

On my first time in the gas chamber, I was at the back of the line coming out with my respirator off, my eyes streaming and almost spewing all over myself. What was the first thing outside to greet me?................A Cpl with a camera!!

That picture is hilarious and I still laugh about it to this day. No big deal, just a bit of fun while learning the importance of good drills.
 
#14
Bravo_Bravo said:
Yup, looks just like you, I or anyone else who has been through the chambers in training in the past 50 years. You have to learn about what happens should you get it wrong, or be too idle to take it seriously. I would be concerned if this happened regularly to the same people, but I doubt it. Does everyone here (except journos and Waltish types) remember having to unmask, reel off your name, rank, number and then a stream of questions until you got a lung full?
 
#15
"Asking recruits to take their respirators off for more than just a few seconds in a room full of CS gas is insane." andy mcnab on the side of the column.

reckon andy mcbadass really said that?

i had to name all of the teams in the premiership at the time. 20 clubs. as soon as i was struggling i was whisked out. you have to feel the effects or you will never have faith in your kit. yes i coughed and spluttered for a bit... a lesson i wont forget, which comes in handy for when tony sends us to another shithole. i will know my respirator works i will know what its like to cough my lungs up and wont want it to happen again.

the paper that supports our boys.... :)
 
#16
Another pointless story used for the 'shock' value. How do you teach NBC training otherwise?

They'd be quick to moan if the lads had come under chemical attack in Iraq and died as a result of unrealistic training. Duplicity - The Sun? Never.....
 
#17
Understand, lots of points along the lines of "valuable lesson, worse in my day, doesn't harm anyone, etc." Whilst not spoiling for an argument, let's consider this in the light of recent news stories and current climate.

Yes, we have to train our soldiers differently, to how we used to. So, inevitably, stuff that went on 10 - 20 years ago, seems harsh now. But, back in the day, instructors would often use teaching techniques with little regard to H & S, to make a teaching point - often through ignorance of the risks / consequences. These days, in light of incidents at Deepcut and elsewhere, and the calls for enquiries following them, it is obvious that the standards that military instructors employ have to be very high.

We can all slate the Sun for publishing these stories (and I'm as critical as anyone to some of the drivel they report), but how can training establishments continue to appoint soldiers to training posts, who:

A) Think it's okay to risk a recruit's physical health by exposing them to CS for so long - when the risks are well known.
B) Employ a teaching practise (exposure beyond a few seconds) that isn't recommended by any NBC school.
C) Think it's okay to video the events for anything other than training purposes.

To me, it appears absolutely amazing that a training establishment is knowingly employing an instructor with a conviction for violence, who is tagged, to instruct recruits, very much under his own devices. He has evidently taken some form of sadistic pleasure from this.

CoC at ATR Winchester needs to answer some tough questions on their' standards of employing instructors, and the ongoing monitoring of them. Had one of the recruits died, this would have been yet another "Why the Fcuk was he doing that?" type debate, with military training methods yet again coming under the media spotlight. Are they honestly saying that this guy was a suitable role model? A top instructor? Somebody who had demonstrated exemplary standards in his career?

The vast majority of military instructors that I have worked with over 20 years are absolutely brilliant instructors with good knowledge, experience and the ability to pass on their knowledge really well. Personalities such as the instructor involved, give the wider public (like the ones with kids at places like Winchester) a bad feeling about military instructors, which is a great pity, and again causes undue scrutiny.

And whilst I understand the feelings behind Bravo2Nothing's post above, would comment as follows - B20, not a dig mate, similar comments on other pages.

"How do you teach NBC training otherwise?" - So, is this a recommended method? If it is, then no debate. If this could cause unnecessary harm, then it shouldn't be carried out - period. There is no training value of exposing recruits to a riot control agent for longer than a few seconds, beyond this, the effects are well documented, and no training benefit is derived.

"They'd be quick to moan if the lads had come under chemical attack in Iraq and died as a result of unrealistic training. Duplicity - The Sun? Never..... " Yep, you're right, but maybe the 000's of casualties that we could suffer in an NBC environment, would probably be caused by a complete lack of spare canisters and detection equipment available. And how realistic is exposure to minutes of CS gas. "During this lesson, I am going to teach you, your tolerance of a riot control agent, of course in a real situation, you'd be exposed to much more deadly agents, but your ability to withstand them without the use of a respirator is what we're preparing you for."
 
#18
The really funny thing about this whole episode is that journalists do come to this site and do actually read what is written here.

That would make me very presumptious as to what their objectives are.

2 Other threads already closed as everyone is saying the same thing!

THE GAS CHAMBER IS NORMAL AND A NECESSITY!

But they wont print that because that doesn't sell. So, that tells me that todays press is so left wing anti forces bioust that they don't really care about the truth and thus are a bunch of scum!
 
#19
Exactly! It is needed. Have you her of conditioning? Those recruits are going to remember how much it sucked getting CS'd next time they're in there doing their drills, and are going to do their best not to fcuk them up! It gives them a bit of fear and concentrates them. Hell, I had to tell a joke when I was in their! I can laugh about it now tho.

T C
 
#20
The_Cheat said:
Exactly! It is needed. Have you her of conditioning? Those recruits are going to remember how much it sucked getting CS'd next time they're in there doing their drills, and are going to do their best not to fcuk them up! It gives them a bit of fear and concentrates them. Hell, I had to tell a joke when I was in their! I can laugh about it now tho.

T C
I don't think anyone can state that the chamber os not needed, my point was that the manner in which we train our soldiers in such environments has to be realistic and of real training value. Like you, I had to tell a joke, and this took 10 - 15 seconds and a couple of lungfuls of CS, and like you I survived. Did it instill fear? Well, probably yes , did the fact that I had inhaled CS, make me any quicker / more focused on donning NBC equipment 20 years later, when it was for real? - No!

We have, as professional soldiers / instructors / CO's of Trg Establishments a duty of care to all of our soldiers. Yes, I know it's sounding like a bleeding heart liberal view, but, this incident is just b*llox, and is everything to do with how instructors who decide to "ad-lib" do so, without the CoC laying down standards and knowing how the subjects are taught day to day. This is no Deepcut, but it easily could have been. And how would your partner / mate / buddy react to throwing up and you making a home movie with running commentary?!

I am all for realistic training, can I make a suggestion: Plan for the APWT to be carried out under "real" conditions, have a few guys observing over the mantel and returning fire whilst you fire your weapon. I reckon this would give them a bit of fear and concentrate them. Admittedly, after a few losses on the ranges, no doubt the bleeding heart liberals, would campaign to have the practise stopped!
 
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