The Sterling

NSP

LE
What like...?

That's what I was expecting to happen to the Iranian coast guard dinghy with two big outboards and DsHK on tripod with feet glass-fibred to the deck to do. Only I wasn't sure what would happen first: the feet tearing free of the deck or the whole raft flipping over, especially if they fired it over the beams.
 

Dalef65

Old-Salt
The SMG, suffered from the same thing as pretty much every bit of standard issue kit.
It was standard, while everybody wanted to be different, hence zips in boots, tropical combats, tailored combat jackets etc.

If everyone has been issued Uzi's you could guarantee the fashionable man about town would have wanted the SMG.

It fired the same rounds as the MP5 and Uzi, which as everyone knows are,like, totally lethal, but the SMG could be stopped at 5 yards with a British Rail cheese sandwich.

More bollox spoken about this weapon than just about any other. Go onto YouTube, find anyone testing one, who isn't wearing 80's DPM and stinking of piss and they all speak highly of it.
Yeah but its not That Rifle and it looks shit.
 
There's frequently some safety features to prevent it or make it less likely, grip safety, safety sear, or the push-in cocking handle on the Mk 2(?) Sten, etc.. The CETME C2 in the video had a bunch of "clever safety features" from 3:40.

Those would probably have doubled the cost of the Sterling gun and made it more complex and less reliable. A folding, or non-hook shaped cocking handle might have been an imp[provement.
On the Sterling it's the fact that the safety locks the bolt in the forward position. It's just that the safety can get knocked off too easily...

The push-through cocking handles were standard on the Mk.V STEN and a retrofit to the others whenever possible (my Mk.2 doesn't have it, although it has the later cocking handle) and my Mk.3 does have it.

With that CETME one, the change that struck me was that going to a Thompson-style pivoting "hammer" seemed a Bad Move, a huge amount of unnecessary complexity for probably no benefit.
 
Unless they found the firing point, he's talking shite as usual.
What possible evidence from the wound would enable an accurate estimate of range!
Depth of penetration will reduce as range increases & bullet velocity reduces
Angle of entry will increase with range, as the arc needed to reach the target increases
 
Depth of penetration will reduce as range increases & bullet velocity reduces
Angle of entry will increase with range, as the arc needed to reach the target increases
depth of pentration table within flesh must be quite the thing. Got one that would show how to measure range that the round was fired from?
Any clue how the angle the victim was in at the time of impact is determined? Was he leaning forward. back, to the side, moving, stationary, seated, etc?
 
The only safety issue I ever knew of with the Sterling was when making the machine gun ready. You had to consciously ensure the cocking handle was pulled all the way back as far as it would travel so that the breech block locked into position on the trigger lug.

It has been know for somebody to pull the cocking handle back in a rush and inadvertently release it before the breech block was far enough back to lock onto the trigger lug.

When the cocking handle was released too soon, the spring has forced the breech block forwards (as it’s supposed to) and the breech block has engaged a round from the magazine into the barrel and fired it.

I’ve known this to happen once with tragic results.
 
I'd prefer to call it a "fluke shot" rather than, er, "lucky" - given the tragic result. But what surprised me in the report was exactly that extreme distance. There was a subsequent article about the incident in either "Stern" or "Der Spiegel" magazine. I can't quite mind which one it was for the whole thing happened yonks ago. But there was an illustration of where the shooter had stood and where the victims. The revelation that one had been shot dead at about 800 metres really made me sit up and take note. It's not the sort of range that you'd normally attribute to NATO 9, is it?

There are plenty of articles about the two murders here:
But I can't seem to find anything about the actual distances involved. Oh, by the way, the shooter was eventually caught and sent down for 15 years. I made a mistake there because he was nabbed a long time after the incident.

MsG
516m away according to the Wikipedia article. Still, very unlucky to get hit at that range.
Assuming it wasn't an ND from someone closer.
 
Saw this, learned something, thought it might be of interest:


[Note: I am well aware that many in this forum have derided this weapon, the Small Metal Gun, over many years. I fired it on range days in the early 80s and invariably had a grin on my face at the end of the shoot. Never fired it in anger. I would always invite any armchair ballistics expert to don the rain-soaked army blanket , stand at the 50m point and see how many 9mil rounds he could absorb and still be smiling.....]
Congratulations for not calling it a 'Stirling', the preferred spelling for those who favour 'NAFFI' 'Nissan Hut' and 'BOAR'.
 
516m away according to the Wikipedia article. Still, very unlucky to get hit at that range.
Assuming it wasn't an ND from someone closer.
sounds like he was just unlucky and stopped a ricochet from the shots fired at the much closer Polizei
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
516m away according to the Wikipedia article. Still, very unlucky to get hit at that range.
Assuming it wasn't an ND from someone closer.
The projectiles in both murders were clearly identified as coming from the weapon used by the perpetrator. But, as you state, it was clearly unlucky to be hit at that extreme range. There was obviously no "aiming" involved.

MsG
 
I hope he was dealt with crisply...

He was, he also had a foul up whilst firing the Bren gun (my favourite weapon), again as I related in my thread about my time in the NRP ... "The other incident also starred Pringle, this was again on the range, this time firing the Bren gun. This was normally fired from the prone position, using a magazine of 30 rounds mounted on top of the breach. Because the Bren is a fully automatic machine gun, the barrel can get very hot and it comes supplied with a spare barrel, which is changed before it overheats. This is a drill which we practiced, the final act of the drill was to ensure the clip holding the barrel was secure before putting a fresh magazine on and cocking the weapon.
Pringle was firing the weapon when the order was given, "change barrel", everything went smoothly, magazine off, clear breach, unclip barrel, replace barrel ensuring it has "clicked" into place, replace magazine, cock weapon, carry on firing, except this time instead of the bullet flying down the range, it took the barrel as well! Pringle had forgotten to ensure the barrel was securely clipped on and so the bullet once fired in the breach, had entered the barrel and taken it up the range. As a result of these incidents Pringle was charged, found guilty of negligence and "back-squaded", this meant going back to a junior squad and repeating all of the instruction again."

Some people just aren't cut out for certain careers, after he eventually passed out of training school, he was posted to my station, my CO put him in my shift "as I knew him"! He was still a prat and several months later he was asked to resign for "bringing the Force into disrepute" for bouncing a large cheque in a hotel, trying to impress some civvies!
 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Congratulations for not calling it a 'Stirling', the preferred spelling for those who favour 'NAFFI' 'Nissan Hut' and 'BOAR'.
Thanks...I just copied it off the Action Man packaging :)

(He also had a Degtyarev - well tooled up )
 

ericferret

War Hero
The only safety issue I ever knew of with the Sterling was when making the machine gun ready. You had to consciously ensure the cocking handle was pulled all the way back as far as it would travel so that the breech block locked into position on the trigger lug.

It has been know for somebody to pull the cocking handle back in a rush and inadvertently release it before the breech block was far enough back to lock onto the trigger lug.

When the cocking handle was released too soon, the spring has forced the breech block forwards (as it’s supposed to) and the breech block has engaged a round from the magazine into the barrel and fired it.

I’ve known this to happen once with tragic results.
Sadly I was guilty of a negligent discharge fortunately down range due to this cause.
Very cold winters day and the cocking handle slipping out of my fingers.
Rightly given bollocking for using wrong technique.
Cock using edge of hand not fingers.

Strangely because of ear defenders and lack of recoil I didn't even realise what had happened until the RSM
arrived for "a chat".
 
It was a reliable bit of kit and fit for purpose if you were carrying out a purpose that needed a machine gun. It would shoot someone the same as an SLR would but just at a fairly shorter range and of course, you wouldn't have to keep pulling the trigger to put some sustained fire down provided you selected full auto.

There were jobs where it was ordained that an SMG was the standard weapon to carry. If you were lugging the 84mm or were a four tonner driver or carried an A41, you were thought to be a candidate for an SMG.

The reality was that most of those people stuck with their SLR's because they liked the SLR and also because they couldn't be bothered with the admin to swap one weapon for the other.

Using an SLR required a lot of work to get it and yourself into a situation where when you picked it up and until you put it down again often much later, the SLR kind of melded into being a part of you.

Adopting a child and then giving that child away was probably an easier process than asking an infantryman to use a weapon other than his SLR which had been issued to him as his personal weapon.

That said, I would have felt confident with an SMG when on operations but there is a different mind set to that of using an SLR because it's a different weapon with different characteristics. One of the most significant characteristics is range.

9mm will travel through a wet blanket at 100 metres. We've done it out of curiosity just to see if it would but there are lot's of times when you would want something at a longer range than that. Hence the SLR which at shorter ranges might not show much difference between the two weapons but will show it's superiority at longer ranges.

So I would always vote for the SLR in 99% of situations but don't underestimate the SMG if you have to carry one!
Former RSM, Colin "Death Grip" H used one on GW1, shot two Iraqis with his while working with the Hooligans, said he didn't know it was that accurate...
 
sounds like he was just unlucky and stopped a ricochet from the shots fired at the much closer Polizei
Quite likely, I'm too suspicious. Maybe he'd fired at a group of police in the hope of hitting one of them.
 
Tell us more...
All i can remember is that it was lever delayed blowback and possibly an open bolt LMG designed as a " last ditch" weapon .

Sterlings other attempts at making guns were all poor, their AR18 made under licence was considered the lowest quality of them all, they also designed their own AR18 knockoff that looked like someone built it in their shed .
.
images (17).jpeg

They also designed a stamped sheet metal version of the SMG with a bizarre off set barrel and attachments for two different bayonets. Another heap of crap that went nowhere.
images (30).jpeg
 
All i can remember is that it was lever delayed blowback and possibly an open bolt LMG designed as a " last ditch" weapon .

Sterlings other attempts at making guns were all poor, their AR18 made under licence was considered the lowest quality of them all, they also designed their own AR18 knockoff that looked like someone built it in their shed .
. View attachment 494614
They also designed a stamped sheet metal version of the SMG with a bizarre off set barrel and attachments for two different bayonets. Another heap of crap that went nowhere.
View attachment 494615
You seem to have a very negative attitude about their efforts. The Mk4 L2A3 was very labour intensive to manufacture. The pressed steel S11 effort was supposed to be simpler to fabricate, as were the Uzi and the AR-18. It went nowhere because they didn't have the finance to get it into production. It might have been developed in something useful if someone had chucked a few million at it. It was hard to sell SMGs for £130 a go when the USSR would sell any Middle East dictators AKs for $25 and Uncle Sam would provide a similar aid package to keep the commies out.

The ugly duckling Sterling Assault rifle was developed into something useful in Singapore.
 
You seem to have a very negative attitude about their efforts. The Mk4 L2A3 was very labour intensive to manufacture. The pressed steel S11 effort was supposed to be simpler to fabricate, as were the Uzi and the AR-18. It went nowhere because they didn't have the finance to get it into production. It might have been developed in something useful if someone had chucked a few million at it. It was hard to sell SMGs for £130 a go when the USSR would sell any Middle East dictators AKs for $25 and Uncle Sam would provide a similar aid package to keep the commies out.

The ugly duckling Sterling Assault rifle was developed into something useful in Singapore.
Their efforts were junk and failures that's why I have a negative attitude.

The way they manufactured the SMG by induction brazing and all machined parts from solid while everyone one else was using sheet metal stampings at a fraction of the cost was so outdated they can't have made any money on them. Sterling was one of those lame duck British companies of that era trying to stave off bankruptcy.
 

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