The Sterling on OP Market Garden?

Discussion in 'Weapons, Equipment & Rations' started by steven seagull, Nov 12, 2012.

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  1. I was having a bit of a mooch in Waterstones on my lunch and picked up The Sterling Years by James Edminston.

    On the back it states that the Sterling wasnt adopted by us until 1953 because we had plenty of Stens lying around but limited numbers saw trials during WWII and some were carried by British paratroopers in Arnhem. Does anyone know if any pictures or testimonies of this exist and where I could have a butchers? I gave the book a bit of a flick to no avail.

    Feel free to add your own anecdotes / bullshit / urban myths to this thread.

    Cheers SS
  2. According to wiki it's true, no piccies though but some of the Airborne chappys might have some.

    "To meet the new requirement, George William Patchett, the chief designer at the Sterling Armaments Company of Dagenham submitted a sample weapon of new design in early 1944. The army quickly recognised its potential (i.e. significantly increased accuracy and reliability when compared to the Sten) and ordered 120 examples for trials. Towards the end of the Second World War, some of these trial samples were used in combat by airborne troops at Arnhem and elsewhere, where it was known as the Patchett submachine gun. Given that the Patchett/Sterling can use straight Sten submachine gun magazines as well as the curved Sterling design, there were no interoperability problems."
  3. old_fat_and_hairy

    old_fat_and_hairy LE Book Reviewer Reviews Editor

    Of course it's true! we hadn't yet then embraced decimalisation, so sterling was still the supreme currency.

    Or did you mean something else?
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  4. It was the Mark 2 Patchett, made by Sterlings. There is a mention of this in another book, 'The Guns of Dagenham' by the former MD of Sterlings. ISTR that the company records show about 50 going to the WD at this time, but there are no records, photos, veterans' recollections of Sterlings being issued, guns recovered from the Germans or anything else to support the theory that they got to Arnhem.

    I think at least one early Sterling has been found in some old dead geezer's shed since WW2. Reading between the lines, I'd suspect that Stens were being scattered around like confetti and the Patchetts were probably grabbed by the REMFy blanket stackers as ally gizits.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2016
  5. That's a shame. I was hoping to see a picture or two of boxheads wearing wet blankets for protection ;-)
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  6. IIRC its myth; research on another forum - with input from Warminster - established that there were only about six prototype Patchetts actually in the possession of the War Office at the time of Arnhem, but that all were at various small arms establishments for examination. There were no parts, magazines or any other related item accepted for service at the time, and certainly no channels for any issue to the field army.
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  7. Thanks for the replies fellas. Just goes to show you the depth of knowledge we have on here. Four replies and question answered.
  8. Nice one. I can't use translate on the works system, what's the jist?

    (My foreign language skills consist of pointing and shouting until the filthy savages do as commanded.)
  9. Attached a picture I got from France by David Porter, author of the book "Les Parachutistes SAS de la France Libre". The only information of the picture is "Daverieus".

    Cesar Daverieus made ​​during operation Amherst part of the stick of Lieutenant Edmond Hubler, 2nd Company, 3RCP/3SAS. They ended up between Hijker Mild and Appelscha.

    What this picture already special is that there are two Patchett submachine guns on it (para standing right and a left on the ground), an experimental forerunner of the post-war British "Sterling" submachine gun.

    Of Patchett are only about 120 copies.

    It is known that the SAS them in France / Belgium used, this is the first time they appear in the Netherlands.

    I am looking for further information about this photograph, who is who? where was the photo taken? when?
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  10. I didn't know that.

    The early Patchett (or one version and I don't know which) was telescopic, the rear half of the receiver tube slid into the front half, making it very compact for carrying. There was a photo in the 'Guns of Dagenham' book of someone posing with a Patchett in a leg holster, much like a pistol.

    There is a line on the photo above, just in front of the cocking handle, which is probably the join between the two tubes.

    This feature made it more portable and it's probably why so few of the trial versions were returned. The complications may also have made he Mk 1 Patchett less reliable than the Mk 4 SMG we all knew and loved.
  11. They would have ended up dead boxheads. We set up a wet blanket down at Hythe ranges one day just to test the myth and it was completely busted. One magazine at 100 metres and one wet blanket full of 9mm holes later, our estimation of the SMG grew, only slightly though. I don't actually recall any one carrying one on operations in the battalion.
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  12. Do you mean this one?

    MCEM-2 experimental submachine gun

    MCEM-2 (Machine Carbine Experimental Model 2) submachine gun was produced only in prototype form, but it is worth to mention by the simple fact that it is one of the very first submachine guns to combine wrap-around bolt and magazine in pistol grip - features, later copied in Czechoslovak SA23, Israeli Uzi and a great number of other submachine guns. MCEM-2 was the second prototype in a line of experimental submachine guns, designed in Britain in 1944. It was envisioned as a possible replacement for the STEN submachine gun then inservice. The MCEM-2 was developed by polish immigrant, someone called Podsenkowski. It is believed that prototypes of MCEM-2 were made before the endof WW2, and its derivatives MCEM-4 and MCEM-6 were tested soon after the war.The latter modifications differed mostly in adoption of the rate-reducing mechanism, incorporated into trigger unit; the rate of fire therefore was decreased from 1000 to more realistic 700 rounds per minute. Nevertheless,neither prototype was found suitable for adoption, and several years later British army adopted a more conventional submachine gun, the Sterling-Patchett.

    MCEM-2is blowback-operated, selective fired weapon which fires from open bolt. Thebolt is of "telescoped", or "wrap-around" type, with most of its mass being in front of the breech face. The receiver is made from steel tube, and pistol grip with trigger unit is attached below. magazine is inserted into the pistol grip. safety and fire mode selector are incorporated into one three-position switch, located in front of the trigger on the left side of the trigger unit housing. The guns was developed along with large semi-rigid holster, which can be attached to the receiver of the gun to form the shoulder stock.

    Attached Files:

  13. Did you ever think about fitting an ashtray to a motorbike or brewing up in a chocolate teapot or did you spend time at Porton down trying to bred a bull with tits?