The Rise of the Centrist

Boris_Johnson

ADC
Moderator
DirtyBAT
Thinking on of much of what has been said throughout this thread, about the centre, i was struck by this monologue on GB News by 'Neil Oliver'... I would consider him to be somewhat reflective of the 'centre' politically and societally. Like many posters here I have been a public servant be it Military or Civil Service, for the majority of my life.

Both politically and societally, I have thought that the Institutions of State to be a vital element of maintaining the nation state and our democracy.

I've found the vid and watched it thanks. All very good points and I especially like the comparison to the abusive relationship.

My only issue with it is despite a pledge to not follow the "law" over morals, there is no solution proposed?

But then I took my own thoughts further - what would that solution be, exactly? Therein lies the rub with a government running away with their own laws and having no credible opposition. Not only can they get away with murder - they cannot be hurt by the ballot box so we are powerless to resist in a way (Lincoln quote number 1 - the ballot is stringer than the bullet).

Two thoughts come to mind 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' and 'all that is required for evil to take root is for good men to do nothing'... It's becoming rather hard to keep the glass half full, these days.

edited to check broken link?

Lincoln quote number 2 - To sin by silence when they should protest, makes cowards of men.

Perhaps this is the only viable solution left open? Civil unrest?

What worries me is the blind compliance of it all. My local rag has been littered with "mask wearing" articles this last week in response to a rise in cases.

The submissiveness of the masses is astounding. Not a single person has stopped to say, "wait a second, they didn't do a thing last year when they were mandatory - cases still shot up when the kids went back to school?"

Not a single person said, "yeah I'm on board with the masks, but they're not the be all and end all - we still need to avoid touching surfaces / our faces unnecessarily and keep our distance" (after all, a tool is only as good as the person wielding it).

Not a single person has stopped to query the stats - Zoe study has put unvaccinated cases at 75% of the total but instead of comparing the heat maps and realising that 75% of cases (roughly) are 7-10 year olds, the Left are using it as a stick to beat the anti-vax narrative once again.

MSM are doing their usual; capitalising on the fear by allowing adulterers like Prof Neil "Way-off" Ferguson a platform to once again try and tell us there will be over 100,000 cases if we don't act soon. Sky News are even promoting it because as you know, lockdowns mean more viewing figures and a greater captive audience so why wouldn't they? Across the pond the yanks are doomed - pretty much every single news platform of theirs is sponsored by Pfizer...

Because an old sock over your mouth and not your nose, being stood 5cm behind the poor sod you're breathing over after touching everything in the shop and picked your exposed nose, is going to save the world, don't you know :rolleyes:

Which takes me back to civil unrest...

Given the fuel "crisis", the stockpiling and the sheer stupidity - I suspect that too isn't an option either. The British public are either too stupid or too scared to stand up and push back. And when you allow a body of public servants - elected to serve *US*, to rule us instead, I can't help thinking somewhere along the line we perhaps deserve it?
 
I've found the vid and watched it thanks. All very good points and I especially like the comparison to the abusive relationship.

My only issue with it is despite a pledge to not follow the "law" over morals, there is no solution proposed?

But then I took my own thoughts further - what would that solution be, exactly? Therein lies the rub with a government running away with their own laws and having no credible opposition. Not only can they get away with murder - they cannot be hurt by the ballot box so we are powerless to resist in a way (Lincoln quote number 1 - the ballot is stringer than the bullet).



Lincoln quote number 2 - To sin by silence when they should protest, makes cowards of men.

Perhaps this is the only viable solution left open? Civil unrest?

What worries me is the blind compliance of it all. My local rag has been littered with "mask wearing" articles this last week in response to a rise in cases.

The submissiveness of the masses is astounding. Not a single person has stopped to say, "wait a second, they didn't do a thing last year when they were mandatory - cases still shot up when the kids went back to school?"

Not a single person said, "yeah I'm on board with the masks, but they're not the be all and end all - we still need to avoid touching surfaces / our faces unnecessarily and keep our distance" (after all, a tool is only as good as the person wielding it).

Not a single person has stopped to query the stats - Zoe study has put unvaccinated cases at 75% of the total but instead of comparing the heat maps and realising that 75% of cases (roughly) are 7-10 year olds, the Left are using it as a stick to beat the anti-vax narrative once again.

MSM are doing their usual; capitalising on the fear by allowing adulterers like Prof Neil "Way-off" Ferguson a platform to once again try and tell us there will be over 100,000 cases if we don't act soon. Sky News are even promoting it because as you know, lockdowns mean more viewing figures and a greater captive audience so why wouldn't they? Across the pond the yanks are doomed - pretty much every single news platform of theirs is sponsored by Pfizer...

Because an old sock over your mouth and not your nose, being stood 5cm behind the poor sod you're breathing over after touching everything in the shop and picked your exposed nose, is going to save the world, don't you know :rolleyes:

Which takes me back to civil unrest...

Given the fuel "crisis", the stockpiling and the sheer stupidity - I suspect that too isn't an option either. The British public are either too stupid or too scared to stand up and push back. And when you allow a body of public servants - elected to serve *US*, to rule us instead, I can't help thinking somewhere along the line we perhaps deserve it?
The MSM are very good at only interviewing people who echo the points they're want to make and the British public are far more sanguine then you give them credit for.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
We can see conspiracy plainly in the authoritarian/totalitarian state, by the jackboot or secret police.

In the west, the conspiracy is also in plain sight and that is the demand that all institutions both public and private are now obliged to stick to a particular language and messaging that shapes the narrative a ruling class rather likes. So the plebs in the ghettos can think anything they're want, but woe betide anyone who steps out of line in a position of any authority.
But a demand by whom? Not elected officials, nor the majority of the electorate.

What we are seeing in our higher education establishments is undemocratic. Any such observation is dismissed as ‘populist’... probably because the people behind it all know they’ve been caught out and so they need to close the debate down sharpish.

The Unherd article is worrying because it shows that many of our so-called academics are incapable of taking the debate to those with opposing views.

So a significant number would feel ‘uncomfortable’ sitting at lunch next to someone who voted for Brexit? Aw, bless. That is intellectual mediocrity, in fact absence, from people who continually deride the (as they regard them) proles.

A popular view is not necessarily populist. One is commonly held, the other is seeking to gain favour or advantage. A view is generally popular because it is rational.

Most people consider the trans debate nonsense because it is. Most people consider themselves not to be racist because they are, in fact, not. Most people who criticise religious fundamentalism actually have a fair point. Most people who voted Leave did so out of genuine concern over where the EU is heading, not racism.

The best of our ‘finest minds’ can come up with is ‘Boris, grrrr…’.
 
Lincoln quote number 2 - To sin by silence when they should protest, makes cowards of men.

Perhaps this is the only viable solution left open? Civil unrest?

Which takes me back to civil unrest...

Of course they may well be neo-nazis

German police on Sunday arrested dozens of machete-carrying neo-Nazis who mobilised to towns on the Polish border to push back refugees.

Crossings have been on the rise in recent months after Belarusian dictator Alexander Lukashenko said he would no longer stop migrants entering the European Union, as a consequence of Western sanctions imposed on Belarus. Most of those migrants originally come from the Middle East and Africa.


Conversely - they could be centrists that have said '' Enough is enough ''
 
Most people consider the trans debate nonsense because it is. Most people consider themselves not to be racist because they are, in fact, not. Most people who criticise religious fundamentalism actually have a fair point. Most people who voted Leave did so out of genuine concern over where the EU is heading, not racism.

This - In spades.
 

Boris_Johnson

ADC
Moderator
DirtyBAT
Of course they may well be neo-nazis






Conversely - they could be centrists that have said '' Enough is enough ''

I'd hardly call a machete-carrying, anti-immigration mob "Centrists"....!

I'm talking about not blindly following the government's narrative when it's been exposed they are using nudge groups to psychologically manipulate their electorate by taking a stand.

Not marching towards a border with weapons in hand.
 

Boris_Johnson

ADC
Moderator
DirtyBAT
Most people consider the trans debate nonsense because it is. Most people consider themselves not to be racist because they are, in fact, not. Most people who criticise religious fundamentalism actually have a fair point. Most people who voted Leave did so out of genuine concern over where the EU is heading, not racism.

Not that I disagree with anything you've written but...

Viewpoint No.2:

Most people consider the trans debate worthwhile in understanding a complex issue which affects many people. Most people consider racism isn't always in your face and try to understand why it's still very much a cause of such angst and unrest. Most people who criticise religious fundamentalism are often polarized by their availability heuristic and fail to see the wider issues causing it. Most people who voted remain did do because they had a vested interest in the single market and freedom of movement, not because they're anti-racist.

Unfortunately viewpoint No.2 never happens because the political extremes don't want it to happen.

As someone said waaaaay back in the thread, understanding and agreement simply doesn't generate the same level of interest.
 

Boris_Johnson

ADC
Moderator
DirtyBAT
And therein lies part of the problem - Labels are thrown around like confetti at a wedding.



Civil unrest ( If & when it comes )- Will take many forms, not all of those forms will be pretty and non violent.

I'm confused.

If you make a cup of tea, do you not refer to it as such or is that simply a "label"?

Sure there's debate over where we sit on the political spectrum - most of us have elements of left & right leaning within us (some more than others) but I'd take a stab at a mob of machete wielding blokes sit rather comfortably in the "far right".
 
@Boris_Johnson rather than snip your post

Which details much of importance and somethings we all need to consider. Your closing comment "I can't help thinking somewhere along the line we perhaps deserve it?" is something that i have banged on about for some time now across various threads. It's complicated but... We are all guilty to some degree of allowing the political and media classes to lead us around by the nose, far to happy and sitting back spending time on bread and circuses, that is not to say the political and media classes are innocent.

This is not the time for the blame game, or armchair quarter backing, it's time to start fixing things and pronto or watch it all fall apart. Civil Unrest fixes nothing, I think most of us would agree I have no time for mob rule, or most large protests, even when I agree with the cause, that said the action of 'Insulate Britain' is more likely to invoke some mob 'justice'...

So what to do... Hum make a plan. more on that to come.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Not that I disagree with anything you've written but...

Viewpoint No.2:

Most people consider the trans debate worthwhile in understanding a complex issue which affects many people. Most people consider racism isn't always in your face and try to understand why it's still very much a cause of such angst and unrest. Most people who criticise religious fundamentalism are often polarized by their availability heuristic and fail to see the wider issues causing it. Most people who voted remain did do because they had a vested interest in the single market and freedom of movement, not because they're anti-racist.

Unfortunately viewpoint No.2 never happens because the political extremes don't want it to happen.

As someone said waaaaay back in the thread, understanding and agreement simply doesn't generate the same level of interest.
I get that.

I'd disagree that the trans issue affects many people, though. It's a vanishingly small number and while I agree that people's needs need to be accommodated the saturation coverage we're seeing now is ridiculous. Racism? Oh, ok. Is it a cause of angst? One of the most savage critics of BLM that I know is a West Indian mate. We've done race to death in other threads. A lot of 'angst' exists only in the proclamations of certain serial race-baiters, not in the realities. Fundamentalism? Okay, a failure of integration facilitated by certain politicians to garner votes (which might be described as 'populist' politics albeit only aimed at a certain section of society). Remain? Totally. I know someone who voted to stay purely because she works for a French-owned firm and was worried about her job, not because of some firmly held moral or intellectual view.

And round and round and round we can go. All of the above can reasonably be described as politically driven rather than realities. Each is being used to try and gain advantage, not because they really are major concerns.

Anyway, you've dared to pick up on something I've said on the internet. Hitler.

Oh, hang on - you're Boris Johnson!

Grrrrrr...

Debate closed.
 
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Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Sure there's debate over where we sit on the political spectrum - most of us have elements of left & right leaning within us (some more than others) but I'd take a stab at a mob of machete wielding blokes sit rather comfortably in the "far right".
That particular mob of blokes, aye. In this country, I'd suggest that most of the violent unrest in recent years has been committed by the Left-leaning.
 
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I'm confused.

If you make a cup of tea, do you not refer to it as such or is that simply a "label"?

Coffee my good man - Coffee ;) ;)

Sure there's debate over where we sit on the political spectrum

My point wasn't about where people sit on the Political spectrum - It was more to the point that labels ( XLM / XRM / Racist / Fascist / Nazi etc ) gets thrown around with naked abandon.
 

Boris_Johnson

ADC
Moderator
DirtyBAT
Coffee my good man - Coffee ;) ;)



My point wasn't about where people sit on the Political spectrum - It was more to the point that labels ( XLM / XRM / Racist / Fascist / Nazi etc ) gets thrown around with naked abandon.

And you'll note MSM such as the BBC love a good "far right" label as and when such a story occurs (usually one or two a year), but such labelling enthusiasm seems to evaporate during the rest of the year as / when the various mental health / lone wolf incidents occur...

One coffee coming up
 

Boris_Johnson

ADC
Moderator
DirtyBAT
Anyway, you've dared to pick up on something I've said on the internet. Hitler.

Oh, hang on - you're Boris Johnson!

Grrrrrr...

Debate closed.

I love it...!

Re: your point about BLM, I was reading about BLM activist Imarn Ayton a while back, and it occurred to me that they (as an organisation) suffer the same fate as those other causes I referred to a while back in this thread (Fathers4Justice, UKIP) in attracting the extremes.

When asked about the ideals behind the organisation (far left, Neo-Marxism etc), Imarn says there are SEVEN factions of BLM in the UK, and four of those are what you'd consider 'radical'. These are the ones full of white people, your pro-EU vegan types chanting "ACAB" at Black coppers and wanting to defund the Police, abolish capitalism etc.

She represents the message (one of the other three, I assume) the awareness of institutionalised racism - you know, the things most civilised people would want (although I'm not quite sure "institutionalised" is an accurate description, as I always say "show me an institution in the UK which is racist, I'll wait" - see also systemic; show me a system).

But once again a fine example of how the extremes are allowed to pollute our society and disrupt our harmony.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I love it...!

Re: your point about BLM, I was reading about BLM activist Imarn Ayton a while back, and it occurred to me that they (as an organisation) suffer the same fate as those other causes I referred to a while back in this thread (Fathers4Justice, UKIP) in attracting the extremes.

When asked about the ideals behind the organisation (far left, Neo-Marxism etc), Imarn says there are 7 factions of BLM in the UK, and four of those are what you'd consider 'radical'. These are the ones full of white people, your pro-EU vegan types chanting "ACAB" at Black coppers and wanting to defund the Police, abolish capitalism etc.

She represents the message, the awareness of institutionalised racism - you know, the things most civilised people would want (although I'm not quite sure "institutionalised" is an accurate description, as I always say "show me an institution in the UK which is racist, I'll wait" - see also systemic; show me a system).

But once again a find example if how the extremes are allowed to pollute our society and disrupt our harmony.
And where, for example, is the surgical dissection of 'the' BLM by the MSM? Now it turns out there are seven. Shades of Monty Python here... splitters.
 
I had assumed your enormous intellect could find out for yourself the quote. But it was Jay Gould and the old style robber baron have being replaced by the sharp suits and the banks, who will dole out cash to its mates on zero interest rates and foreclose on ordinary people after a couple of missed payments.

The conspiracy has always existed. Because the system of a ruling class who derives its wealth from exploiting people has always existed. Marx argued the system could be turned inside out and the proletariat could run themselves and I've always argued that was wrong and in fact, the only way the system can function cleanly is if the media and the law functions as protection to the citizen. In the bronze age a King who flaunts his debauchery and breaks sacred laws, was usually in deep trouble.

Your own critical thinking is off key. You don't seem to grasp you've actually echoed my own point and agreed with me that the 'conspiracy' is an open alliance and that's exactly what I've being trying to argue all along. You inserted the usual suspects and all you've highlighted is they're operate a nakedly exploitative system( China or Russia) and in the west we use language and a sharp suit to disguise it.

The conspiracy exists and flourishes because the media and law have become corrupted and the old left/right have being distracted by identity politics to leave the money men in charge.

I tend to agree that although you and Hector fire broadsides at each other like a pair of Napoleonic battleships, there is a large element of concurrence...

You both seem to be of the mind that we must find a way of allowing positive progress by mankind as a whole, yet within the law and the democratic political framework that protects us as individuals. Certainly, my concern is that there is a noticeable trend towards preferring Authoritarianism by wealthy and powerful progressives in democratic societies, frustrated by the failure of Democracy to solve what they see as the urgent problems for mankind as a whole (and in some cases, their own vested interests).

Yet, I tend to Hector's view that this is not a universal conspiracy, rather that Authoritarian states see this trend as a means to favour their own ends, and are continually refining their ability to stir the pot. At present, I think Democracy is in the main holding firm, but the gas is being turned up relentlessly; inadvertently by some, deliberately by others. The greatest risk, as BJ highlights above is that we end up with neither Democracy nor Authoritarianism, but Anarchy, which suits neither mankind nor the individual....
 
But a demand by whom? Not elected officials, nor the majority of the electorate.

What we are seeing in our higher education establishments is undemocratic. Any such observation is dismissed as ‘populist’... probably because the people behind it all know they’ve been caught out and so they need to close the debate down sharpish.

The Unherd article is worrying because it shows that many of our so-called academics are incapable of taking the debate to those with opposing views.

So a significant number would feel ‘uncomfortable’ sitting at lunch next to someone who voted for Brexit? Aw, bless. That is intellectual mediocrity, in fact absence, from people who continually deride the (as they regard them) proles.

A popular view is not necessarily populist. One is commonly held, the other is seeking to gain favour or advantage. A view is generally popular because it is rational.

Most people consider the trans debate nonsense because it is. Most people consider themselves not to be racist because they are, in fact, not. Most people who criticise religious fundamentalism actually have a fair point. Most people who voted Leave did so out of genuine concern over where the EU is heading, not racism.

The best of our ‘finest minds’ can come up with is ‘Boris, grrrr…’.
I watched Neil Oliver the other day on GB News and his reference to the government and his question around; Do they're believe us stupid ?? and the simple answer is yes, they're do.

Like any good science person understands, the outliers who aren't stupid need only be deleted from the conversation, or better still, driven to the extreme. It serves a useful feedback, by creating more fear in the ordinary people to stick with the ruling class we've got now and the institutions which serve it. Your academics have no interest in confronting outliers and their disciplines will likely as not suffer greatly because many of them will have adopted biases, which will strongly influence much of what they're churn out.

The media deserve a special mention and take Covid. I would say enough circumstantial evidence exists around gain-of-function and shady experiments in wuhan financed by us for the media to crank up its 'outrage bus', but not even a turning of the engine. They're lie by omission and the lies are getting worse and worse.
 
I tend to agree that although you and Hector fire broadsides at each other like a pair of Napoleonic battleships, there is a large element of concurrence...

You both seem to be of the mind that we must find a way of allowing positive progress by mankind as a whole, yet within the law and the democratic political framework that protects us as individuals. Certainly, my concern is that there is a noticeable trend towards preferring Authoritarianism by wealthy and powerful progressives in democratic societies, frustrated by the failure of Democracy to solve what they see as the urgent problems for mankind as a whole (and in some cases, their own vested interests).

Yet, I tend to Hector's view that this is not a universal conspiracy, rather that Authoritarian states see this trend as a means to favour their own ends, and are continually refining their ability to stir the pot. At present, I think Democracy is in the main holding firm, but the gas is being turned up relentlessly; inadvertently by some, deliberately by others. The greatest risk, as BJ highlights above is that we end up with neither Democracy nor Authoritarianism, but Anarchy, which suits neither mankind nor the individual....
Hector is one of those people who sees all the evils of the world embodied in the obvious suspect countries and simply fails to see how those countries became so hateful(Russia/Iran), or powerful(China) and how much its all so pointless to argue over.

The universal conspiracy has always existed and its who controls the wealth, how its managed and shared, then critically how the have nots are dealt with. Anarchy arrives when the people wholly turn against their masters of the universe and burn down the temples. Its simply my view, that the greedy have in recent times hit upon a system of control, whose inevitable end point is Authoritarianism, bordering on totalitarianism.

P.S.
Its my view transparency and sovereign nations making direct democracy decisions. It will destroy the present system of control and restore, renew democracy and yes make mistakes but we make them collectively and the lies of omission and institutions will be forced back to the majority will of what is truth.
 

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