The Rise of the Centrist

Maybe there’s a further variation of the old left / right spectrum? Progressive and Aspirational?

The Aspirational are those who want to get on, do well for themselves and their families, and build up some sort of value that can then be passed down to their children.

They believe in self-reliance but know from experience that a safety net is needed. However, they have a low tolerance (and no respect) for those who abuse the safety net or promote it as a valid alternative life choice.

They want reasonable public service and a certain level of protection for industry, for as little tax outlay as possible.

They also want as little interference from the establishment and elite as possible.

Basically, they just want to get on and want a “live and let live” society. If you’re successful, you can keep the rewards. If you’re not successful, the state will help temporarily until you’re back on your feet.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Maybe there’s a further variation of the old left / right spectrum? Progressive and Aspirational?

The Aspirational are those who want to get on, do well for themselves and their families, and build up some sort of value that can then be passed down to their children.

They believe in self-reliance but know from experience that a safety net is needed. However, they have a low tolerance (and no respect) for those who abuse the safety net or promote it as a valid alternative life choice.

They want reasonable public service and a certain level of protection for industry, for as little tax outlay as possible.

They also want as little interference from the establishment and elite as possible.

Basically, they just want to get on and “want a live and let live” society. If you’re successful, you can kerp the rewards. If you’re not successful, the state will help temporarily until you’re back on your feet.
You nail something here. Aspirationals are by nature small 'c' conservative - the ability to get on, social mobility, low taxes and so on. Progressives are increasingly mired in the theoretical. That translates into some romanticised vision of the poor/minority groups in clogs and rags, and 'inspiring' them to rise up in protest... witness the rhetoric, and then compare it to voter profiles.
 

Truxx

LE
Bugger. But hope all goes well with the second bid.

One of the few advantages in France (where I live) is that once the sale is agreed neither party can pull out: no gazumping or second thoughts (apart from a 3 week period of grace) on pain of massive financial penalties.

Anyway, papers to be signed on Friday, and I am four sheets to the wind. So I'll see how things go. Just need @Truxx , @jagman2 , and the other experts to help with advice on haulage to, and storage within, the UK.

I'll ask them when I'm sober!
Advice? Have you taken leave of your senses?

In the haulage hierarchy furniture removals and storage rates even lower than passenger carrying; so I wish you well.

I suppose the only thing worth noting is you get what you pay for, or rather cheap is bad!!
 

Mr_Relaxed

War Hero
If you cycle to work rather than drive your car, that is tax avoidance

You're legally avoidance the tax you would pay in fuel duty and the value added tax added to the price of the fuel and to the amount of fuel duty

So cycling to work makes you a dirty tax avoider for example
That’s also the case that if you got the bike through a Cycle to Work scheme through your employer and you also got 12 months to pay for it, interest free and it reduced your tax bill. And you don’t even have to cycle to work!

Had a colleague who bought a new bike a year and he lives >20 miles from the office. :) He wasn’t cycling.
 

Pagan-Image

Clanker
As has been said by you and others in part it may be because the official opposition being both riven with vicious in-fighting, it's tying itself in knot with ludicrous adherence to identitarian causes and seems to care little if at all for the working class.

And this is exactly why the Conservatives have an 80 seat majority.

The Labour party no longer appeal to the 'working' family, they are chasing the fringes, the lame and lazy and the minority groups in order to guarantee their vote, in the meantime they have arrogantly (IMO) ignored the core value of the Labour party 'To support and give a political voice to the workers'. These days the working person gets no support at all from the Labour party and even less voice.

It is no wonder that the Conservatives are appealing proposition to the average working person.

As has been previously said, i am far from being a Labour supporter, but a good Govt needs a good opposition!
 
My dearly departed (and probably now very unfashionable) history teacher, in teaching us about empires noted that they fail because they become weak and complacent.

There was an obvious track through Roman to British.

Whether we have an empire as such now is a discussion. Many people have pointed to the US's global dominance in recent decades but is that really an empire? Certainly, it is eating itself from within and its power is waning. The agents of that change are, again, a discussion point but it's probably fair to say that the US has been invaded, if not physically. No doubt the agitprop which fuels Woke, Antifa and so on are receiving not a little overseas encouragement of one form or another.

What we're seeing is a threat to society's cohesion. Not just in the UK but in the US and other Western-aligned countries.

I agree, to bring it back to the UK, that the Tories appear to be walking blindly into it, or else doing very little about it. It may be the complacency of an always-there-to-be-squandered 80-seat majority. It may be that Brexit and Covid chew up bandwidth enough.

One thing is sure: the population isn't happy. That's not pushing it into Labour's arms. Far from it; if the Tories are failing to shine in many respects Labour is still managing to make them a beacon of virtue by comparison.

I've no issues with that. Labour is a mediocrity of its own making - see comments above about getting complacent and dying from within.

I do, though, think that we need to be doing more to slap down the nonsense of the identitarians. Because it is precisely nonsense.

Yours aye,

Gammon Major
I've always saw the end of empire as a thing linked to the growing sense, that justice or taxes that flow from the law have become unjust and the people are either unwilling to defend the state, or actively working against it. If you track these things the fault line always starts with bad laws.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
I've always saw the end of empire as a thing linked to the growing sense, that justice or taxes that flow from the law have become unjust and the people are either unwilling to defend the state, or actively working against it. If you track these things the fault line always starts with bad laws.
We have a fair system. We also have a lot of noise being made about it being unfair.

Bad laws? How much and many of those were re-formed in Blair's time?

One man, and so much damage done for short-term gain.
 

Mr_Relaxed

War Hero
That's a point, is there a way I can get a tax rebate on boots if I walk to work? I keep wearing them out and it gets expensive after a few years.
Can’t you get them through work? Get them classed as PPE and speak to HR. That’s how the engineers in my place got themselves fully kitted out.
 
Maybe there’s a further variation of the old left / right spectrum? Progressive and Aspirational?

The Aspirational are those who want to get on, do well for themselves and their families, and build up some sort of value that can then be passed down to their children.

They believe in self-reliance but know from experience that a safety net is needed. However, they have a low tolerance (and no respect) for those who abuse the safety net or promote it as a valid alternative life choice.

They want reasonable public service and a certain level of protection for industry, for as little tax outlay as possible.

They also want as little interference from the establishment and elite as possible.

Basically, they just want to get on and want a “live and let live” society. If you’re successful, you can keep the rewards. If you’re not successful, the state will help temporarily until you’re back on your feet.

I used the concept of the 'Aspirational class' in another post, but I used it in regards to the old working class style thinking.
The Class war, if it ever existed, is now over. We live in a time of prosperity. Most households have a TV, I would wager most have several smart phones and an electric toothbrushes. This is not the poverty of the industrial revolution.
I would venture that there's now two main classes, the aspirational and benefit classes. The Benefit classes are willing to skim through life without improving themselves, living at the base level enjoying what cheap pleasures and thrills they can obtain.
The Aspirational classes strive to better themselves, trying to climb to succeed. Note: Those on benefits can be in the aspirational class, but I would suggest they wouldn't be for long!

And here's labours adherence to the antiquated ideals nearly 200 years old harms them. The Aspirational classes see labour yelling bad things about high income earners and those with money. But in their minds they like to think that one day that'll be them. This turns them off Labour. Equally, the benefits class hears labours words, and uses that as a mental crutch to silence the nagging doubt that maybe they should do something? But no, you can blame those failures on the Oppressors of the poor!

And here's the problem for Labour. They are relying on a group of people who, by their very nature, are not inclined to get up and do their part. Their mindset is one of lethargy, and by its very nature it is unlikely these people will stand up, go down the polling station and be counted en mass.
And yet all the Mediocrities in the Labour party can yell about is the Working class! The Working class votes for the other guy as it allows them to be aspirational, and rejects the traditional working class position.

I wonder if we need, as you say to re-evaluate how we look at things. Instead of Left/Right and Working Class/Middle class, some kind of joint system.
 
We have a fair system. We also have a lot of noise being made about it being unfair.

Bad laws? How much and many of those were re-formed in Blair's time?

One man, and so much damage done for short-term gain.
The common law bends with the wind and flexibility was its strength. Its journey towards the Napoleonic and the rise of an activist CPS/Judiciary is just another one of those little canaries in the mine that I see squawking out a warning that everything is not alright.

At the moment people are sanguine, but the next labour government be it 2024 or 2036 is wholly dedicated to changing the law and the adoption of a Napoleonic system, where the state dictates how many days in the week there are, or what rights a citizen has.... If the tories had an ounce of sense they're should be churning out free speech laws at a rate of knots to put a stop to the state having such control and the law becoming an agent of the distant state.

Bad laws may well have good intentions, but are the catalyst for every collapse in world history.
 
And this is exactly why the Conservatives have an 80 seat majority.

The Labour party no longer appeal to the 'working' family, they are chasing the fringes, the lame and lazy and the minority groups in order to guarantee their vote, in the meantime they have arrogantly (IMO) ignored the core value of the Labour party 'To support and give a political voice to the workers'. These days the working person gets no support at all from the Labour party and even less voice.

It is no wonder that the Conservatives are appealing proposition to the average working person.

As has been previously said, i am far from being a Labour supporter, but a good Govt needs a good opposition!
This has never been so true as it is today. The party in power has no one to answer to because the opposition are weak and they have lost focus on the bloke in the street.

Without any real opposition, the tories just keep doing whatever they want because no one questions what they are doing, or why. They literally have a free passage.

Boris is never challenged over his often caddish behaviour, because he’s filled the cabinet with yes men.

No opposition in history has been as poor as it is now. Most are the product of a skewed tertiary education system and they are rightly seen as young fools with no life experience.

There’s a real danger that the left will consume itself through pointless vanity, and the right will continue to agitate for more repulsive forms of fascism lite, simply because no one is prepared to challenge them on it.

The media used to have a role in these circumstances but put they live on envy, so no one trusts their platform of sycophantic playing to the deaf crowd.

I may have become a little disillusioned with it all. :)
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
The common law bends with the wind and flexibility was its strength. Its journey towards the Napoleonic and the rise of an activist CPS/Judiciary is just another one of those little canaries in the mine that I see squawking out a warning that everything is not alright.

At the moment people are sanguine, but the next labour government be it 2024 or 2036 is wholly dedicated to changing the law and the adoption of a Napoleonic system, where the state dictates how many days in the week there are, or what rights a citizen has.... If the tories had an ounce of sense they're should be churning out free speech laws at a rate of knots to put a stop to the state having such control and the law becoming an agent of the distant state.

Bad laws may well have good intentions, but are the catalyst for every collapse in world history.
I'm not always convinced that bad laws have good intentions. Their intentions may be dressed up as good but their underlying aims are often rather darker.

And some are just bad, poorly thought-out laws.
 
I used the concept of the 'Aspirational class' in another post, but I used it in regards to the old working class style thinking.
Sorry; I must have missed yours. However, I do agree and that my thoughts are based on old working class values, just more capitalistic rather than socialistic.

If you put in the effort, you get to keep the rewards and end up better than your peers.
 
I'm not always convinced that bad laws have good intentions. Their intentions may be dressed up as good but their underlying aims are often rather darker.

And some are just bad, poorly thought-out laws.
Take one clear cut and obvious example: England's attempt to introduce new taxes on our American Colonies to help pay for the costs of a recent war(GOOD Intention). But no doubting, the politicians and businessman in the City of London were likely going to benefit enormously one way, or another from the new laws and taxes and at the expense of the colonialists(BAD).

The law is the final breaking point for any society and its at that point, when its exercised by a distant elite that the countdown clock begins. I'm of the opinion we will be ok, but other countries look a lot less healthy.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
I seem to have a problem understanding your dismissal of Benn and Cook as politicians.

Surely they were the kind of genuine and honest politicians that are so lacking today?
I agree with your view of John Smith, what if …….
another potential great politician. Instead we ended up with Blair, the smiling viper. Eugh!

I am also puzzled that the Labour Party produced such quality, so far removed from my centrist beliefs?

The Conservatives and Liberals did not even come close in the same period. JohnnyMercer still finding his way?
"Genuine and honest politicians" don't tend to rise too high. It's the duplicitous buggers who get their names in the history books generally, because they get things done regardless. I detest what Blair did, but you can't deny he changed this nation and earned his place in the history books. The swine.
 
"Genuine and honest politicians" don't tend to rise too high. It's the duplicitous buggers who get their names in the history books generally, because they get things done regardless. I detest what Blair did, but you can't deny he changed this nation and earned his place in the history books. The swine.
My point exactly, there are too few of the required type to go on, and become statesmen.
Blair is still dining on his infamy, with speaking tours, how I hoodwinked a nation. Now laughing at how simple it was pretending to have conviction, but only swelling the coffers later.
His children must be so proud?
 
My point exactly, there are too few of the required type to go on, and become statesmen.
Blair is still dining on his infamy, with speaking tours, how I hoodwinked a nation. Now laughing at how simple it was pretending to have conviction, but only swelling the coffers later.
His children must be so proud?

I believe Blair's daughter attempted suicide around the time of the invasion of Iraq.

I may be confused, because it was largely kept out of the media (and it was some years ago) but there was definitely some kind of serious family crisis.
 
I believe Blair's daughter attempted suicide around the time of the invasion of Iraq.

I may be confused, because it was largely kept out of the media (and it was some years ago) but there was definitely some kind of serious family crisis.
Perhaps his selfish attitude proceeded whatever ‘family crisis’ occurred. I have some sympathy for the children, but Blair has to carry that flat faced witch with him wherever he goes.
The adult children didn’t have much choice about it.
 

Themanwho

LE
Book Reviewer
My point exactly, there are too few of the required type to go on, and become statesmen.
Blair is still dining on his infamy, with speaking tours, how I hoodwinked a nation. Now laughing at how simple it was pretending to have conviction, but only swelling the coffers later.
His children must be so proud?
I think you misunderstand my point, IMHO very, very few "Genuine and honest politicians" are capable of achieving greatness; I can count on the thumbs of one foot the number that spring to mind. As I said earlier, it's the duplicitous buggers who get their names in the history books, because they get things done regardless.
 

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