The Rise of the Centrist

I can perceive of a difference between social media anonymity and people posting unsubstantiated and damaging nonsense, and targeting a concerned individual who uses anonymity to expose that which can be corroborated.
I've worked places where "seniors" apparently can't!
 
This pointless back and forth isn't getting anyone anywhere.

Nobody is "winning".

Simple solution - try posting without quoting anyone.

If you've made your point with someone and that someone has already decided they're not listening - move on. By continually quoting each other you alienate the rest of the readership. Moreover you continue to "platform" your opposition to recite their own stubborn rhetoric.
6 pages on since yesterday and I've bolded the best salient point I've read on here.. On one point: 'nobody is winning'. I think your incorrect on that point. Because the progressives are winning and they're control the media and marketing and so you only need flick on a digital device to be bombarded with progressive propaganda.

I'm a social conservative with a psyche degree and my side doesn't object to the game being rigged, when given an opportunity to create its own platform. But you should consider how every platform including this one is now under sustained attack to conform, or demands they're are de-platformed. Whatever moderates/centrists think of themselves, its their willing support which has handed the progressives so much power.
 
But that's the problem with politically fuelled propaganda - it often hides the other side of the argument no matter who you vote for.

Your poster for example, just says "free stuff, free stuff, free stuff" but if it was honest it would include the most important ingredient of them all - the means to be able to provide the stuff it claims to portray.

@Tyk posted a cracking example of such portrayal in the EU thread:

Politically fuelled propaganda is a problem. It does indeed hide the other side of the argument.

One of the most prolific and huge lies is your mention of “free stuff, free stuff, free stuff!”

This is the huge lie that is perpetuated by the right wing and the rich. They pay for it and everybody else gets it for free. What a huge effing joke on us all that is!

Nothing is free. Everybody (yes, everybody!) pays for it through the taxes that they pay. Every time you drink a pint of beer You pay tax. If you are a smoker, you pay tax. Buy clothes? I don’t see anybody walking around naked. You pay tax. Buy a new car. You pay tax. Put petrol in that car. You pay tax. Earn a living. You pay tax!!

The NHS isn’t free. Ordinary people pay for it. The welfare state isn’t free. Ordinary people pay for it. Public transport isn’t free. Ordinary people pay for it and so on with most things.

Ordinary tax payers pay what they owe when they owe it. They don’t live in tax havens or use complex offshore tax havens to avoid paying the exchequer what they owe it. Billions of pounds every year are secreted away by wealthy individuals and huge corporations through quasi legal but hugely questionable schemes that allow them to do so and this government does nothing about that huge loss of tax revenue other than cover their tracks and help them to facilitate this huge tax fraud on the general public who pay what they owe every week or month of every year!

Ordinary people are ripped off on a massive scale every single day by mega wealthy tax dodging borderline criminal wealthy herberts under the guise that they pay for the rest of us when nothing could be further From the actual truth!

”Free stuff, free stuff, free stuff! It’s most definitely not ordinary people getting the free stuff!

The biggest joke of all is that many ordinary people believe this crap and obligingly for the mega rich are happy to publicly shout it out from the rooftops wherever than can!
 
There are now many ways of screaming your particular flavour of intolerance at people, (nigh-on) anonymously, across the world, as soon as it comes into your head.

I don't think "dangerous men" comes into it.

Some Asian countries (South Korea, I think?) have a system where you have an ID number that you must enter to use the internet.

This raises questions:
1: How is it different from an ID card? Remember everything is getting keyed into the net these days. Hell, my toothbrush has connectivity for some obscurely stupid reason.
2: Considering how well managed the NI system is, do you honestly think there won't be fake ID numbers, or spoofed ID numbers?
3: Cost. This is going to be an expensive database to set up crossing multiple platforms and big corporations. It'll need to be tied in, and secured. That in turn means its backdoor city. Now imagine it was linked to a national database. There's what 20 ISP's and 26 big social media companies. What about E-commerce? All those little sites/forums like ARRSE will all need to tie in as well. That's thousands, if not millions, of sites all linking in to one database. What are the chances they all have their security tighter than a nuns undergarment? It'll only take one with a delayed patch or a weakness in bespoke software and BOOM. If you think it can't happen look at the recent events with Twitch.
4: Are the Asian countries that use this sort of system more polite online? Is it because of the system, or are they more polite societies? What's your metric for measuring this?
 
Some Asian countries (South Korea, I think?) have a system where you have an ID number that you must enter to use the internet.

This raises questions:
1: How is it different from an ID card? Remember everything is getting keyed into the net these days. Hell, my toothbrush has connectivity for some obscurely stupid reason.
2: Considering how well managed the NI system is, do you honestly think there won't be fake ID numbers, or spoofed ID numbers?
3: Cost. This is going to be an expensive database to set up crossing multiple platforms and big corporations. It'll need to be tied in, and secured. That in turn means its backdoor city. Now imagine it was linked to a national database. There's what 20 ISP's and 26 big social media companies. What about E-commerce? All those little sites/forums like ARRSE will all need to tie in as well. That's thousands, if not millions, of sites all linking in to one database. What are the chances they all have their security tighter than a nuns undergarment? It'll only take one with a delayed patch or a weakness in bespoke software and BOOM. If you think it can't happen look at the recent events with Twitch.
4: Are the Asian countries that use this sort of system more polite online? Is it because of the system, or are they more polite societies? What's your metric for measuring this?
No idea why you're asking me, unless the questions are posed to the crowd.
 

Boris_Johnson

ADC
Moderator
DirtyBAT
@rgjbloke i think you're missing my point.

I'm not debating socialism with you. As a centrist I see its benefits and pitfalls.

I also see a one-sided argument promoting it.

Have another look at that Yes Prime Minister vid I posted a couple of pages back and hopefully you'll see what I'm getting at :thumright:
 
I have a couple of issues with hate crime legislation.

"snipped' for brevity but please go back and read CC's full post"

'Hate crime' undermines a fundamental of our system of law.

That 'hate crime' is so loosely defined, and has a low bar of somebody not even the 'victim' just be being offended or alarmed, being enough to be processed by the judiciary at times. In many ways I believe that its intension, is to not only undermine the rule of law but to muddy the waters... Just look at what the SNP have done in Scotland.

Again one would think the centre, would have stood up more vocally to this, sadly and I include many within the Conservative Government, have umm'ed and arghed whilst looking down as they shuffle their feet uncomfortably, instead. They are seemingly more fearful of being called nasty names, by their political opposition, than rip it to shreds on its fundamental flaws. This is why as I have said many times the centre has been dragged to the left and pulled the much Conservative Government shamefully with it.


Despite all the hyperbolic chatter about a kinder and more genteel political discourse. Politics is and should be somewhat combative by nature, just as our judicial system is. Guilt must be proved, innocence is presumed. Thus parliament when drafting laws need them to be rigorously challenged, on its fundementals, and substance not process.

That does not mean one has draw swords, but it does mean at times being prepared to stand up and shout out when something is wrong. Of course this is hard and made harder when all around you are cowed... Not wanting to be labelled nasty.


The anonymity of Social Media, does allow offence to be easily thrown about without the same consequence if it was published in traditional news media, and where one can choose to pursue Libel through the courts even though that is both costly and times consuming.

The use of Social Media, to issue 'death threats' is reprehensible the same as if one was to go old school and post the same in an anonymous letter. The police can and do pursue such when it is deemed to be a credible threat.

Do we really think or want the police to act on anonymous insulting that is more 'he said, she said' or 'your mother', when the complainant is not even within that Ven diagram. Rather they read or hear something that is second hand.


Many on the right see this as a slippery slope to be used against functioning society, but any such concerns are labelled by the left as being typical of 'tramp kicking fascistic' types who want a return to Victorian society or worse. Now I doubt many centrists do have much time for such nonsense either and when they do finally put their heads above the parapet, they get hit just the same. Sadly it seems that can be enough to silence them... In some cases.

Its that whole larger group working harder and longer on a clear problem to reach a consensus and be fair and just to all. That you get crushed by a small mob of the unreasonable before you are out of the starting gate.
 
I just want to be treated as an equal and beyond the comedy value, I want the hypocrisy to stop. I want to be left alone to go about my business, have an opinion, wear and ear what I want and enjoy my time spending the money I work hard to earn doing these things.

As a human I evolved to eat meat and if cows are too stupid to not get out of the way when something a bit higher up the food chain comes over the horizon they have got to expect to become a pie and a pair of shoes once in a while. Vegans are free to crack in with their lifestyle, let me do the same.

I didn’t go to university. I pissed about at school and didn’t get the grades. That is my mistake and beyond the irksome reminders from my wife and daughter who both have degrees, I’ll live with it. You make life choices, deal with the consequences. So why am I forced to fund the consequences of other peoples’ life choices and be pilloried if I dare question it?

Women demanding equality and access to Gentlemen’s Clubs. From Women Only university colleges.

MPs calling other MPs scum then posting condolences when one of the scum gets knifed.

People flying to climate change conferences to lecture others on the evils of their lifestyle. By private jet.

Black people moaning about stabbing victims being overwhelmingly black without pausing to consider that most perpetrators are too. And then claiming Stop and Search is racist because it targets the known demographic most prone to carrying knives.

A black MP moaning about racist rhetoric stating “the problem with Britain is white people”.

White people moaning about all immigrants being the source of all our ills without pausing to consider how many immigrants have enriched this country from being able to buy a pint of milk at 0100 to having a brain tumour removed or how many white people are a drain on society.

Feel free to carry on. I’ve got a life to get on with.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Politically fuelled propaganda is a problem. It does indeed hide the other side of the argument.

One of the most prolific and huge lies is your mention of “free stuff, free stuff, free stuff!”

This is the huge lie that is perpetuated by the right wing and the rich. They pay for it and everybody else gets it for free. What a huge effing joke on us all that is!

Nothing is free. Everybody (yes, everybody!) pays for it through the taxes that they pay. Every time you drink a pint of beer You pay tax. If you are a smoker, you pay tax. Buy clothes? I don’t see anybody walking around naked. You pay tax. Buy a new car. You pay tax. Put petrol in that car. You pay tax. Earn a living. You pay tax!!

The NHS isn’t free. Ordinary people pay for it. The welfare state isn’t free. Ordinary people pay for it. Public transport isn’t free. Ordinary people pay for it and so on with most things.

Ordinary tax payers pay what they owe when they owe it. They don’t live in tax havens or use complex offshore tax havens to avoid paying the exchequer what they owe it. Billions of pounds every year are secreted away by wealthy individuals and huge corporations through quasi legal but hugely questionable schemes that allow them to do so and this government does nothing about that huge loss of tax revenue other than cover their tracks and help them to facilitate this huge tax fraud on the general public who pay what they owe every week or month of every year!

Ordinary people are ripped off on a massive scale every single day by mega wealthy tax dodging borderline criminal wealthy herberts under the guise that they pay for the rest of us when nothing could be further From the actual truth!

”Free stuff, free stuff, free stuff! It’s most definitely not ordinary people getting the free stuff!

The biggest joke of all is that many ordinary people believe this crap and obligingly for the mega rich are happy to publicly shout it out from the rooftops wherever than can!
‘This’ government facilitates, eh?

Ok.

A lot of the complications of our tax system date back to Gordon Brown.

‘Free stuff’? Yes, everything costs and it’s paid for by - oh, ordinary people.

Have a look again at the tax contribution of the wealthiest. Not all of the money is hidden. Far from it. ‘Ordinary people’ (how bloody patronising, by the way) make their contributions but without those of the wealthiest we’d be buggered.

But the likes of Corbyn do make promises with other people’s money. That’s where the ‘free stuff’ retort comes from. It has basis.

Yours is one of the contrived, politically partisan and, frankly, erroneous posts I’ve read in a very long time.

0/10. Try again.
 
I just want to be treated as an equal and beyond the comedy value, I want the hypocrisy to stop. I want to be left alone to go about my business, have an opinion, wear and ear what I want and enjoy my time spending the money I work hard to earn doing these things.

As a human I evolved to eat meat and if cows are too stupid to not get out of the way when something a bit higher up the food chain comes over the horizon they have got to expect to become a pie and a pair of shoes once in a while. Vegans are free to crack in with their lifestyle, let me do the same.

I didn’t go to university. I pissed about at school and didn’t get the grades. That is my mistake and beyond the irksome reminders from my wife and daughter who both have degrees, I’ll live with it. You make life choices, deal with the consequences. So why am I forced to fund the consequences of other peoples’ life choices and be pilloried if I dare question it?

Women demanding equality and access to Gentlemen’s Clubs. From Women Only university colleges.

MPs calling other MPs scum then posting condolences when one of the scum gets knifed.

People flying to climate change conferences to lecture others on the evils of their lifestyle. By private jet.

Black people moaning about stabbing victims being overwhelmingly black without pausing to consider that most perpetrators are too. And then claiming Stop and Search is racist because it targets the known demographic most prone to carrying knives.

A black MP moaning about racist rhetoric stating “the problem with Britain is white people”.

White people moaning about all immigrants being the source of all our ills without pausing to consider how many immigrants have enriched this country from being able to buy a pint of milk at 0100 to having a brain tumour removed or how many white people are a drain on society.

Feel free to carry on. I’ve got a life to get on with.

As humans we have a powerful irrational streak at the heart of our being. In some it is (mainly) latent, in others it is closer to the surface.

The stresses of overpopulation, or perceived threats, tend to bring that irrational streak straight to the surface. That's when reversion to barbarism and killing begins.

I think that social media and 24 hour news mimics feelings of threat and overpopulation and activates some dangerous reactions. As a species we don't cope well with strangers (hence the elaborate codes of hospitality that evolved in primitive societies).

Social media constantly exposes us to potentially hostile strangers...
 
‘This’ government facilitates, eh?

Ok.

A lot of the complications of our tax system date back to Gordon Brown.

‘Free stuff’? Yes, everything costs and it’s paid for by - oh, ordinary people.

Have a look again at the tax contribution of the wealthiest. Not all of the money is hidden. Far from it. ‘Ordinary people’ (how bloody patronising, by the way) make their contributions but without those of the wealthiest we’d be buggered.

But the likes of Corbyn do make promises with other people’s money. That’s where the ‘free stuff’ retort comes from. It has basis.

Yours is one of the contrived, politically partisan and, frankly, erroneous posts I’ve read in a very long time.

0/10. Try again.
And that M’lud, concludes my case!
 
Some Asian countries (South Korea, I think?) have a system where you have an ID number that you must enter to use the internet.

This raises questions:
1: How is it different from an ID card? Remember everything is getting keyed into the net these days. Hell, my toothbrush has connectivity for some obscurely stupid reason.
2: Considering how well managed the NI system is, do you honestly think there won't be fake ID numbers, or spoofed ID numbers?
3: Cost. This is going to be an expensive database to set up crossing multiple platforms and big corporations. It'll need to be tied in, and secured. That in turn means its backdoor city. Now imagine it was linked to a national database. There's what 20 ISP's and 26 big social media companies. What about E-commerce? All those little sites/forums like ARRSE will all need to tie in as well. That's thousands, if not millions, of sites all linking in to one database. What are the chances they all have their security tighter than a nuns undergarment? It'll only take one with a delayed patch or a weakness in bespoke software and BOOM. If you think it can't happen look at the recent events with Twitch.
4: Are the Asian countries that use this sort of system more polite online? Is it because of the system, or are they more polite societies? What's your metric for measuring this?
Excellent points.

Can I say though, I simply don't care as long as there are loads of government contracts.

22+robocop+ed+209.jpg


"I had a guaranteed military sale with ED209 Renovation program! Spare parts for 25 years! Who cares if it worked or not!"

An all time classic line from a movie, where the glitchy system is discussed.
 
As humans we have a powerful irrational streak at the heart of our being. In some it is (mainly) latent, in others it is closer to the surface.

The stresses of overpopulation, or perceived threats, tend to bring that irrational streak straight to the surface. That's when reversion to barbarism and killing begins.

I think that social media and 24 hour news mimics feelings of threat and overpopulation and activates some dangerous reactions. As a species we don't cope well with strangers (hence the elaborate codes of hospitality that evolved in primitive societies).

Social media constantly exposes us to potentially hostile strangers...

Yes indeed "Social media constantly exposes us to potentially hostile strangers..." I would say that sadly as in the past, one would choose to close the door to it, by not bothering to be on it or use it constantly. Sadly for a multitude of reason several recent generations don't have the critical thinking or fortitude to give it up or be selective in its use.

Rather they have been lead to believe that their every utterance is gold and every voice is important. It's a huge imbalance of the signal to noise ratio, much like being on 'Doom Watch on the HF net' can send you into a head-achingly induced drooling snapping turtle.
 
All these XRW types.. I bet they eat Indian and Chinese food, and Kebabs etc.. ********* the lot of them.

Skin is just the coloured outer wrapper, peel it off and we are all the same underneath.
It's the vocal minority causing problems for the rest of society, I'm all for free speech but when it starts causing idiots to go out and commit murder then maybe things should be re evaluated.

Except we aren't. The mentality behind what's the wrapper matters. And I, as a white man, have had more issues with white eastern European people than coloured Muslims. The issue is how you think, not the colour of your skin.
 

jrwlynch

LE
Book Reviewer
Politically fuelled propaganda is a problem. It does indeed hide the other side of the argument.

One of the most prolific and huge lies is your mention of “free stuff, free stuff, free stuff!”

This is the huge lie that is perpetuated by the right wing and the rich. They pay for it and everybody else gets it for free. What a huge effing joke on us all that is!

Nothing is free. Everybody (yes, everybody!) pays for it through the taxes that they pay. Every time you drink a pint of beer You pay tax. If you are a smoker, you pay tax. Buy clothes? I don’t see anybody walking around naked. You pay tax. Buy a new car. You pay tax. Put petrol in that car. You pay tax. Earn a living. You pay tax!!

That's true, except for where it isn't.

The problem is that while "everybody" pays some tax, little of it comes in from the lower earners (how do you tax them much? they don't have much to take...) and lower down the incomes scale, folk are getting out far more than they put in. Which is the point of a progressive system, but is often overlooked or deliberately ignored.

As long ago as 2012, it was being pointed out that you had to be up into the top 40% of incomes, for (on average) your contributions in taxation to outweigh the direct and indirect benefits received from the State.

That's become even more pronounced since then, with the rise in the income tax threshold meaning lower earners pay much less direct tax (getting on for half of UK adults don't pay any income tax at all). The big contribution to the exchequer made by lower-income households as a proportion of income, and the reason it's sometimes cited that they pay "a lot of tax", is from duty on tobacco and alcohol; a 20-a-day habit will set you back £100 a week these days, most of that straight to HMRC...

But in terms of actually raising money, even the Guardian is having to admit that taxation is falling most heavily on the upper end of the income scale, and not because "the rich" are getting richer.

The NHS isn’t free. Ordinary people pay for it. The welfare state isn’t free. Ordinary people pay for it. Public transport isn’t free. Ordinary people pay for it and so on with most things.

And when the calls to spend lots more on the NHS, or on welfare, or on public transport... are the 40-50% of the British adults currently paying no income tax, willing to cough up 20-30% of their take-home pay to fund it?

Because that's what you get in Scandinavia: high rates of tax, with very low allowances, because there everyone really does pay.

Dig a little into the claims that the UK needs to spend more here, there and everywhere, and it either becomes "modern monetary theory" (i.e. print money and pretend nothing can go wrong) or "tax the rich more, but definitely not me".

Ordinary tax payers pay what they owe when they owe it.

And they pay surprisingly little, when you dig into the numbers and the net receipts.

They don’t live in tax havens or use complex offshore tax havens to avoid paying the exchequer what they owe it. Billions of pounds every year are secreted away by wealthy individuals and huge corporations through quasi legal but hugely questionable schemes that allow them to do so and this government does nothing about that huge loss of tax revenue other than cover their tracks and help them to facilitate this huge tax fraud on the general public who pay what they owe every week or month of every year!

And the higher you crank up the top rates on those people and businesses, the more worthwhile such avoidance becomes; or folk simply stop bothering and move to Ireland or other lower-tax jurisdiction, or simply decide that they're not going to put in extra hours when they're not seeing any return for it.

Add to that Government obsession with tinkering and you see all sorts of schemes where one part of the Treasury is wailing "tax avoidance!" while another is gratefully noticing investment by British backers into whichever politician's Really Good Idea is currently getting favoured status.

UK tax law currently runs at something like 40,000 pages of text and even HMRC admit that no one person is now able to understand it all, with at least one trial of an alleged tax-dodger collapsing when the defence got HMRC witnesses to directly contradict each other on the stand: and successive governments keep adding yet more complexity.

But it keeps coming back to the point that everyone is willing to say nice things and promise everyone a unicorn as long as "someone else" is paying for it; it's when the details emerge, of "and you will have to pay a fair bit more in tax to fund this" that they decide they're not as keen on the reality as they were on the theory.
 
I don't agree. I think the centerist POV is just what it says. The majority of us have a touch of socialism embedded and want to help those unable to help themselves (left) while at the same time being against those who freeload, including immigrants (right) - mash them together and you get the centre point which is where I suspect the majority of Britons are.

And it was that same Centrist majority - no matter whether they are Labour or Tory inclined - who decided Brexit was the best choice.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
And that M’lud, concludes my case!
Far less hyperbolic than your post.

This government 'facilitates', eh?

Defined as 'makes an action or process easier' - which implies a positive intervention. Show me how that happens. Show me how this government is actively helping them to do that. Show me how the last Labour government did any different, given that your ire is directed at this - a Tory - government. Brown robbed 'ordinary people's' pensions and savings to feed a bloated welfare system. He still managed to leave us with a huge debt despite making many more billions from what he did than he'd ever expected.

'Ordinary people' pay for the NHS?

The rich - the top one percent - pay 30 percent of the income tax in this country... that's an easy-to-find, factual figure. Could they pay more? Probably. Could they afford it? Undoubtedly, but they are still paying three-tenths of the total.

Without that three-tenths, we'd be in a bit of a mess. It would be a hell of a chunk to lose. But your contention that all is paid for by 'ordinary people' is a conceit. It pretends that the rich don't pay tax and that their money, which somehow in your construct doesn't exist, isn't also used to pay for things. Or does this government reserve the tax revenues from the richest for ring-fenced projects that don't benefit all of us?

There are also lots of 'ordinary people' who avoid tax by working cash-in-hand. I've recently moved house and I can promise you that I've had several tradesmen, who are doing very well, offer a discount for staying off the books. 'Ordinary people'. Again, in your construct, they are of unquestionable virtue and put upon by a system which treats them unfairly.

Don't accuse me of propaganda just because I challenge your clumsy stereotypes.
 
Centrism is indeed a lofty ideal, complicated predominantly by two things.
1. The plethora of attempts to rationalise the current laws, with exacerbating factors. Race, religion and gender being currently popular as inciting various forms of hatred.
2. The lack of anger from the centre, when required to respond to such incited hatred. The extremes on both flanks need to be bought closer together. The lack of anger or response from the centre is indicative of the very positive qualities they hold dear, and help widen the extremes.

Always try to do the right thing, do your very best to be a good, kind person. Do not kill or steal. Treat others as you would have them treat you!

That little collection of ethical conduct was obviously drawn from my Christian childhood over 60 years ago. Today I am a confirmed atheist. It does not lessen my experiences being raised in a council house in a working class, northern mining town.
It informs my experience, just as the full career with the colors has done, and made me a bit of a pacifist.

We are all the sum of our experiences, and the thinking that takes place around momentous events during our lives.


Start by touching the edges of extremism, where they are more vulnerable, or easily persuaded to join the centre.
Do not deny the msm or social media, which feeds the extremes. Encourage them to bring the extremes further into the open, where they can be more easily ridiculed for such preposterous beliefs and behaviours.

Let PR and marketing be your friend, provided they can be ethically sound. :)
 

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