The Remainer march in London today.

#21
...actually looking at the reports of the event it looks more like a White Supremacy March, one of the only non-white faces I saw was Sadiq Khan, I wonder if he will moan about this event not being BAME inclusive.
 
#22
Not sure about the Franc but the other two are a reasonable bet along with the Drachma and the Lira.
Well there are 9 countries in the EU that don't use the euro, so once Greece, Italy etc have been well and truly asset stripped, then perhaps there will be a debate whether the PIGS can have their own currency back. Somehow I doubt it.
 
#23
At this point I don't know which I find more irritating - the paranoia & hyperbole of hardcore remain supporters or the paranoia & hyperbole of hardcore leave supporters.

Nearly half the electorate voted to remain & a portion of 'leave' voters might not have voted the way they did if it had been a referendum on the terms of the final deal. It's a bit much to imply that approximately half the electorate is some sort of 5th column. I don't want another referendum to happen but wanting a referendum on the final deal is a reasonable position. What are the reasons for thinking that it's unreasonable? That a referendum already happened? Firstly, things change & new information comes to light. Who argued that, in light of the electorate's endorsement of the party that won the, say, 1997 general election, there should have been no subsequent general elections? Secondly, the previous referendum wasn't on the same question. Thirdly, a referendum on the final deal would give people the opportunity to know exactly what they're voting for.

The basis for objecting to another referendum seems to boil down to the possibility that a majority of the electorate may vote against what leave supporters want. Well, as I & many other leave supporters pointed out last time round, bad luck, that's democracy.

As someone who hopes the UK leaves the EU with the greatest possible success (leading to more nations leaving) I've been very disappointed with the poor quality of argument for the leave position, much of which being unserious, inconsistent (e.g., goal-post moving), straw-manning (e.g., portraying the highly technical concerns voiced by economists as 'fearmongering about famine & pestilence'), demonology & snarling that is guaranteed to persuade absolutely no one. If the 2nd referendum does happen & the outcome is a message to Brussels along the lines of 'we changed our minds' a lot of the blame for that outcome should lie with my fellow leave supporters.
This post is possibly the most sensible one I’ve seen on arrse regarding this matter.

A vote on the final deal would be a vote on the facts and not the lies that were spouted by either side and the promises that were made that nobody had any intention of keeping even as the words left their mouths.

Bring it on!
 
#24
What would happen if we had another Brexit vote and there was a BIGGER majority for leave?
Seeing as the numbers attending yesterday's march will be proof enough for some people we should be staying... how about having a Brexiters March somewhere in UK (not London as that's too full of foreigners) and see if the BBC will do the same aerial shots of 'a big crowd' to demonstrate that many still want us to leave?
 
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#25
What did the marchers ever do for us?
 
#26
This post is possibly the most sensible one I’ve seen on arrse regarding this matter.

A vote on the final deal would be a vote on the facts and not the lies that were spouted by either side and the promises that were made that nobody had any intention of keeping even as the words left their mouths.

Bring it on!
Firstly, how would you phrase the question for a ballot:

1. Should the UK accept the deal on offer
2. Should the UK reject the deal on offer
3. Should the UK seek to extend the negotiation
4. Should the UK seek to Remain in the EU
5. Should the UK leave without a deal

etc, etc

Secondly, how can you honestly expect either side of the debate to not spout lies and mis-facts as in the lead up to, during and post Referendum?

Thirdly, how can anyone honestly expect either side, UK or EU, to honour the final agreement?

Not really thought your post through have you?
 

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#27
At this point I don't know which I find more irritating - the paranoia & hyperbole of hardcore remain supporters or the paranoia & hyperbole of hardcore leave supporters.

Nearly half the electorate voted to remain & a portion of 'leave' voters might not have voted the way they did if it had been a referendum on the terms of the final deal. It's a bit much to imply that approximately half the electorate is some sort of 5th column. I don't want another referendum to happen but wanting a referendum on the final deal is a reasonable position. What are the reasons for thinking that it's unreasonable? That a referendum already happened? Firstly, things change & new information comes to light. Who argued that, in light of the electorate's endorsement of the party that won the, say, 1997 general election, there should have been no subsequent general elections? Secondly, the previous referendum wasn't on the same question. Thirdly, a referendum on the final deal would give people the opportunity to know exactly what they're voting for.

The basis for objecting to another referendum seems to boil down to the possibility that a majority of the electorate may vote against what leave supporters want. Well, as I & many other leave supporters pointed out last time round, bad luck, that's democracy.

As someone who hopes the UK leaves the EU with the greatest possible success (leading to more nations leaving) I've been very disappointed with the poor quality of argument for the leave position, much of which being unserious, inconsistent (e.g., goal-post moving), straw-manning (e.g., portraying the highly technical concerns voiced by economists as 'fearmongering about famine & pestilence'), demonology & snarling that is guaranteed to persuade absolutely no one. If the 2nd referendum does happen & the outcome is a message to Brussels along the lines of 'we changed our minds' a lot of the blame for that outcome should lie with my fellow leave supporters.
I disagree with your call for a second referendum or vote, whatever one wishes to call it.

The main problem with the referendum is not the result itself but the fact it was a non partisan vote which allowed the losers to work away within the party political system to overturn a democratic vote that they did not like. We then had a quick general election st which both major parties stood on a brexit stance. This changed when Labour saw an opportunity to use brexit to bring down the government and get them in, while still ostensibly having a brexit stance. The whole issue came about not because the vitevwrnt brexit but because it was a non partisan referendum which the losers have used, quite effectively, to undermine the result and country.

If there is to be another vote then it needs to be a general election, held after we have left the EU on which the parties can put their stance in their manifesto and keep their MPs to that manifesto. The referendum vote went Leave so we should do that, all else is political that has nothing to do with brexit.

If MPs can't follow their party manifesto then they need to say so and either leave it form a new party. We need to leave the EU asap before it costs us so much that it puts us at a disadvantage in the business world, an aim of the EU.
 
#28
The trouble is the extreme Euroweenies are convinced that if we leave the EU the Sun will cease shining, nobody will be able to breathe, animals will stop breeding etc etc. The is a huge amount of groupthink and trying to give the right vibe.

The trouble is the response to this type of protest will be political, but really the politicians need to butt out and let the civil servants and diplomats get on with it.
 
#30
Firstly, how would you phrase the question for a ballot:

1. Should the UK accept the deal on offer
2. Should the UK reject the deal on offer
3. Should the UK seek to extend the negotiation
4. Should the UK seek to Remain in the EU
5. Should the UK leave without a deal

etc, etc

Secondly, how can you honestly expect either side of the debate to not spout lies and mis-facts as in the lead up to, during and post Referendum?

Thirdly, how can anyone honestly expect either side, UK or EU, to honour the final agreement?

Not really thought your post through have you?
I’ve thought it through completely.

I can also detect the panic in your post as you turn green at the gills at the thought of the possibility that people may make a different decision if facts are used when they consider what way to vote rather than not really having a clue what will happen if they vote to leave.

The wording on the ballot would be easy. This is what the government have negotiated. Should we stay or should we go. Place your mark in the appropriate box.
 
#31
The trouble is the extreme Euroweenies are convinced that if we leave the EU the Sun will cease shining, nobody will be able to breathe, animals will stop breeding etc etc. The is a huge amount of groupthink and trying to give the right vibe.

The trouble is the response to this type of protest will be political, but really the politicians need to butt out and let the civil servants and diplomats get on with it.
You mean politicians using a situation to ingrate themselves with whichever group is in the ascendancy ? Say it ain't so.
 
#37
The wording on the ballot would be easy. This is what the government have negotiated. Should we stay or should we go. Place your mark in the appropriate box.
And how big would that document be to explain in simple words (working to the lowest common denominator as they too have a vote) what they had negotiated. How long would it take to write this document?

The people who marched think they will get a vote on staying but what the people's vote is actually a vote on the conditions of leave.

What happens if they vote against the deal.

Most seem to think that this would be because people want to stay in the EU but it also could be that people think the deal is not in the best interest of the UK and so want a better deal from the EU. Or the UK walks without a deal and see the French cheese and wine growers burning tyres on French roads.
 
#39
..... let the civil servants and diplomats get on with it.
Civil servants. Diplomats. I'd chuck 'em in the same bucket as politicians.
The majority said leave. Let Business get on with it. It's what business does. The slops are, in the main, lifes failures.
 
#40
Seeing as the numbers attending yesterday's march will be proof enough for some people we should be staying... how about having a Brexiters March somewhere in UK (not London as that's too full of foreigners) and see if the BBC will do the same aerial shots of 'a big crowdbig' to demonstrate that many still want us to leave?
I marched to the polling station on 23 June 2016 and voted. We won.
Why do we need to march again.
 
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