The police farce.

[wetsmonkey]

Perhaps the 2 police should have just issued the care home with a crime number instead of attending as many forces do when they get reports of burglary!!

Which type of burglary are you referring to?

 

[Sam The Bam]

Are you talking about dementia, or two coppers sorting out a one legged person in a wheelchair,
who as dementia.

You asked if my MiL had one leg and was in a wheelchair. I replied that even if she was, getting her to do something she doesn't want to do is one hell of a battle.

 

[sonofgreenfinch]

Those one legged old men really kick like a mule.

If holding a knife, and refusing an instruction to put it down, one leg or two ain’t especially relevant

 

[anglo]

If holding a knife, and refusing an instruction to put it down, one leg or two ain’t especially relevant

And he could have run them down with his wheelchair as well, that's if he could remember how to
use his wheelchair, as he had dementia, and him being superfast at the age of 93.
I can see why two trained coppers were a little afraid of him

 

[harrythebastard]

If holding a knife, and refusing an instruction to put it down, one leg or two ain’t especially relevant

Sorry mate, going to have to disagree on that one permanently, policing by consent has been in for quite a while now, most certainly in England and Wales.
Refusing lawful Police instructions is a criminal offence in some Commonwealth countries but not currently in Blighty.
It might be subject to change one day in the future, but given the current case that we are debating, I would personally dread that day.
This episode, if it all goes horribly wrong, will cost two blokes some serious porridge time because their own Chief Constable failed to recruit suitable candidates, adequately train those suitable candidates and then most of all, failed to supervise them on the ground.
I am tempted to ask whether there are Sergeants who actually do go out on patrol supervision any more?

 

[moggy_cattermole]

Come on Harry, do you really believe that it was ignoring a police instruction that led to him having force used on him, rather than him presenting an immediate danger to himself and or others?

I hope not, but am open to the possibility that this could be judged to have been excessive; but he doesn't need legs to be dangerous with a knife, and if he refuses to put the knife down then he clearly remains a threat.

 

[ex_colonial]

Which type of burglary are you referring to?

Police may no longer respond to all burglaries, warns chief | The Week UK

Government cuts to the policing budget are forcing the service to make big changes to the way it works

www.theweek.co.uk

snip "Burglary victims should not expect an automatic visit from the police, a top police chief has warned, as forces seek to find new ways to absorb the government's cuts to police budgets."

Police 'fail to investigate in two-thirds of burglaries' shocking new data reveals

COPS are failing to investigate two thirds of burglaries properly, shocking new data has revelaed. In the last two years, the number of unsolved domestic burglaries has risen almost 20 per cent, wh…

www.thesun.co.uk

snip "According to The Telegraph, after years of decline, burglary has suddenly seen a sharp upturn with more than 400,000 crimes recorded last year - around half of which took place at people's homes.
But despite the surge in offences, many forces have stopped routinely attending burglaries, opting instead to deal with victims on the phone."

 

[wetsmonkey]

Police may no longer respond to all burglaries, warns chief | The Week UK

Government cuts to the policing budget are forcing the service to make big changes to the way it works

www.theweek.co.uk

snip "Burglary victims should not expect an automatic visit from the police, a top police chief has warned, as forces seek to find new ways to absorb the government's cuts to police budgets."

Police 'fail to investigate in two-thirds of burglaries' shocking new data reveals

COPS are failing to investigate two thirds of burglaries properly, shocking new data has revelaed. In the last two years, the number of unsolved domestic burglaries has risen almost 20 per cent, wh…

www.thesun.co.uk

snip "According to The Telegraph, after years of decline, burglary has suddenly seen a sharp upturn with more than 400,000 crimes recorded last year - around half of which took place at people's homes.
But despite the surge in offences, many forces have stopped routinely attending burglaries, opting instead to deal with victims on the phone."

2015 and 2018.

What type of burglaries are you talking about?

 

[harrythebastard]

Come on Harry, do you really believe that it was ignoring a police instruction that led to him having force used on him, rather than him presenting an immediate danger to himself and or others?

No mate, I am saying that he was tasered, and died, because standards of recruiting, training and active supervision are on the floor.
It is almost as if there is an unofficial competition between forces as to who can cock up the most simple of jobs in the biggest way in order to grab the worst possible headlines.
These are the sort of things that are losing the consent of the decent general public to be policed, that was my point of yesterday.
There are three very relevant words to be considered in using any degree of force, as we know.
Reasonable, necessary and proportionate.
A one-legged 93 year old diabetic man with dementia confined to a wheelchair, and further confined in a room away from anyone else would not have been the greatest threat to my life.
Whether he had a fork with that knife or not.

 

[tiger stacker]

Good god, man, you'll never get into Arrse Internal Affairs with that attitude?

FOC

 

[moggy_cattermole]

No mate, I am saying that he was tasered, and died, because standards of recruiting, training and active supervision are on the floor.
It is almost as if there is an unofficial competition between forces as to who can cock up the most simple of jobs in the biggest way in order to grab the worst possible headlines.
These are the sort of things that are losing the consent of the decent general public to be policed, that was my point of yesterday.
There are three very relevant words to be considered in using any degree of force, as we know.
Reasonable, necessary and proportionate.
A one-legged 93 year old diabetic man with dementia confined to a wheelchair, and further confined in a room away from anyone else would not have been the greatest threat to my life.
Whether he had a fork with that knife or not.

Shit training and supervision aside then, what was the little rant about policing by consent and refusal to follow police instructions in some Commonwealth countries in aid of?

 

[foggy_balla]

No mate, I am saying that he was tasered, and died, because standards of recruiting, training and active supervision are on the floor.
It is almost as if there is an unofficial competition between forces as to who can cock up the most simple of jobs in the biggest way in order to grab the worst possible headlines.
These are the sort of things that are losing the consent of the decent general public to be policed, that was my point of yesterday.
There are three very relevant words to be considered in using any degree of force, as we know.
Reasonable, necessary and proportionate.
A one-legged 93 year old diabetic man with dementia confined to a wheelchair, and further confined in a room away from anyone else would not have been the greatest threat to my life.
Whether he had a fork with that knife or not.

Or alternatively if he’d possibly the knife at his own throat? Positive obligation to do something other than lock the door and leave him in there to crack on. Approach to disarm him with “empty hand tactics”? Run the risk of him in his agitated state getting a jab in your groin or an artery nicked yourself? Or strike with a baton at arms length to disarm him? Doesn’t work? Spray and/or taser to incapacitate without having to get hands on straight away? Good to see you’ve already decided, without knowing the full facts that it was the police actions he died from.

 

[Gout Man]

How would using baton strikes, CS and a taser as has been alleged, be lawful against people who aren’t armed with a knife or offering any violence?

Tell us a story from the sixties in Africa, when you hit someone with a pick helve.

How about saving life and limb? Emergency ambulance trying to get through, the police should borrow one, dress up as paramedics and turn up in it lights flashing siren going etc, unwashed don’t move, do as @ex_colonial suggested.
Honestly it’s the ways and means act.

 

[Syledis]

Enough of this.

Where's the BWC footage of hopalong Percy Sugden riding the

Police may no longer respond to all burglaries, warns chief | The Week UK

Government cuts to the policing budget are forcing the service to make big changes to the way it works

www.theweek.co.uk

snip "Burglary victims should not expect an automatic visit from the police, a top police chief has warned, as forces seek to find new ways to absorb the government's cuts to police budgets."

Police 'fail to investigate in two-thirds of burglaries' shocking new data reveals

COPS are failing to investigate two thirds of burglaries properly, shocking new data has revelaed. In the last two years, the number of unsolved domestic burglaries has risen almost 20 per cent, wh…

www.thesun.co.uk

snip "According to The Telegraph, after years of decline, burglary has suddenly seen a sharp upturn with more than 400,000 crimes recorded last year - around half of which took place at people's homes.
But despite the surge in offences, many forces have stopped routinely attending burglaries, opting instead to deal with victims on the phone."

Love to see any correlation between immigration and crime rates

 

[Gout Man]

Police may no longer respond to all burglaries, warns chief | The Week UK

Government cuts to the policing budget are forcing the service to make big changes to the way it works

www.theweek.co.uk

snip "Burglary victims should not expect an automatic visit from the police, a top police chief has warned, as forces seek to find new ways to absorb the government's cuts to police budgets."

Police 'fail to investigate in two-thirds of burglaries' shocking new data reveals

COPS are failing to investigate two thirds of burglaries properly, shocking new data has revelaed. In the last two years, the number of unsolved domestic burglaries has risen almost 20 per cent, wh…

www.thesun.co.uk

snip "According to The Telegraph, after years of decline, burglary has suddenly seen a sharp upturn with more than 400,000 crimes recorded last year - around half of which took place at people's homes.
But despite the surge in offences, many forces have stopped routinely attending burglaries, opting instead to deal with victims on the phone."

I’ve news for you. Over thirty years ago unless there was a witness who could describe a suspect all crime reports started off. “By person/s unknown…”
and we’re screened out.
They we’re only screened back in if SOCO got a positive hit. Mind you we did attend and knock on a few doors actually looking for witnesses.

 

[harrythebastard]

Or alternatively if he’d possibly the knife at his own throat? Positive obligation to do something other than lock the door and leave him in there to crack on. Approach to disarm him with “empty hand tactics”? Run the risk of him in his agitated state getting a jab in your groin or an artery nicked yourself? Or strike with a baton at arms length to disarm him? Doesn’t work? Spray and/or taser to incapacitate without having to get hands on straight away? Good to see you’ve already decided, without knowing the full facts that it was the police actions he died from.

No mate, if he had the knife at his own throat in your scenario then the last thing that you would do would be to taser him, do some research on the subject of catatonic spasm.
(Junior CID course 1986, among the subjects taught by Professor Peter Vanezis, HO pathologist)
About as logical as using it on a bloke who had doused himself in petrol huh?
I carried while at work sometimes, S+W and MP5K together, it was no big deal, just additional things to be signed out for like a radio.
It seems to some of us that these days, whilst signing out tasers and other equipment from stores, they are signing back in their brains for the duration of the shift.
My generation would not have signed theirs back in, but actually taken them out to work with them and used them.
And yes my mind has been made up on just the brief facts so far, the fact that tasering an old boy of 93 in a wheelchair is somehow acceptable in the UK in 2022 says more about you than me.
If it took all of my 8 hour shift to deal with this job, so be it, it would have been resolved without serious injury to anyone, and certainly not any deaths.
Previous generations could actually relate and talk to people, he was an old boy in a care home in St Leonards FFS, probably scared and very confused probably armed with his knife and fork from lunch.
It was not the Stonebridge Park Estate at 3 am kicking doors in.
Treating people with humanity, respect and dignity does not appear to be taught these days, and neither does catatonic spasm as I have now mentioned it.

Absolutely indefensible, again.

 

[foggy_balla]

No mate, if he had the knife at his own throat in your scenario then the last thing that you would do would be to taser him, do some research on the subject of catatonic spasm.
(Junior CID course 1986, among the subjects taught by Professor Peter Vanezis, HO pathologist)
About as logical as using it on a bloke who had doused himself in petrol huh?
I carried while at work sometimes, S+W and MP5K together, it was no big deal, just additional things to be signed out for like a radio.
It seems to some of us that these days, whilst signing out tasers and other equipment from stores, they are signing back in their brains for the duration of the shift.
My generation would not have signed theirs back in, but actually taken them out to work with them and used them.
And yes my mind has been made up on just the brief facts so far, the fact that tasering an old boy of 93 in a wheelchair is somehow acceptable in the UK in 2022 says more about you than me.
If it took all of my 8 hour shift to deal with this job, so be it, it would have been resolved without serious injury to anyone, and certainly not any deaths.
Previous generations could actually relate and talk to people, he was an old boy in a care home in St Leonards FFS, probably scared and very confused probably armed with his knife and fork from lunch.
It was not the Stonebridge Park Estate at 3 am kicking doors in.
Treating people with humanity, respect and dignity does not appear to be taught these days, and neither does catatonic spasm as I have now mentioned it.

Absolutely indefensible, again.

The point I was attempting to make by throwing out an alternative narrative to this incident was, as yet none of us know the full facts. Yet some, including yourself are happy to condemn the officers actions regardless. They may very well be young in service officers who’ve made a complete balls of what could or should have been a simple situation. Also possible they could have 50-60 years service between them and found themselves in a situation where they’d to do something which required that level of force. Me, you, none of us on this site know. Personally I generally try and avoid having a set opinion on something with only a smattering of the facts available to me. Having spent 34 years in uniform between military and policing, and all of my time in the latter as a uniformed peeler I’d certainly agree there’s different, and often less exacting standards from what I remember when I first started. The narrative however that all peelers nowadays are incompetent, lazy, work shy wasters couldn’t be further from the truth.

 

[Werewolf]

Nah kill 'em all let their God sort it out works betterer....

Arnaud Amalric Walt.

 

[harrythebastard]

The point I was attempting to make by throwing out an alternative narrative to this incident was, as yet none of us know the full facts. Yet some, including yourself are happy to condemn the officers actions regardless. They may very well be young in service officers who’ve made a complete balls of what could or should have been a simple situation.

When was the last time that you tasered a 93 year old, one-legged geezer in a wheelchair armed with a knife and fork that he had kept from his lunch tray?
Maybe even armed also with those other mystical powers bestowed upon him by the name of diabetes and dementia, and him also being detained in a room all alone?
In a care home at St Leonards on Sea, in the middle of the afternoon?
Could you Taser him? Would you have Tasered him?
I have asked around many of my former colleagues and nobody answered that they had done so, funnily enough.
Or would even consider doing so.
The oldest person showing enough aggression for a Taser to be deployed in the MPD was 45 years old on an armed operation by the Flying Squad in 2008, soppy bastard.
He did have a number of previous too, he wasn't just a retired chippy in a care home who had recently lost his wife and his mind.

My conclusions are therefore:-
When the full facts come out they will prove to be even more horrendous and we will all wonder whether it is a race to the bottom between UK policing and Chinese policing in Hong Kong.

Treating people with humanity, dignity and respect would be nice actually, especially 93 year old geezers in wheelchairs.

Endex from me.

 

[foggy_balla]

When was the last time that you tasered a 93 year old, one-legged geezer in a wheelchair armed with a knife and fork that he had kept from his lunch tray?
Maybe even armed also with those other mystical powers bestowed upon him by the name of diabetes and dementia, and him also being detained in a room all alone?
In a care home at St Leonards on Sea, in the middle of the afternoon?
Could you Taser him? Would you have Tasered him?
I have asked around many of my former colleagues and nobody answered that they had done so, funnily enough.
Or would even consider doing so.
The oldest person showing enough aggression for a Taser to be deployed in the MPD was 45 years old on an armed operation by the Flying Squad in 2008, soppy bastard.
He did have a number of previous too, he wasn't just a retired chippy in a care home who had recently lost his wife and his mind.

My conclusions are therefore:-
When the full facts come out they will prove to be even more horrendous and we will all wonder whether it is a race to the bottom between UK policing and Chinese policing in Hong Kong.

Treating people with humanity, dignity and respect would be nice actually, especially 93 year old geezers in wheelchairs.

Endex from me.

Punched a 14 year old girl straight in the chops once. Got a commendation too. Not tasered any old, one legged gentleman mind. Saying that, I’ve asked around my colleagues and none of them would have shot a fella carrying nothing more dangerous than a table leg. Unlike some of your contemporaries Harry. Context and full possession of the facts before making a judgement though, innit.