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The police farce.

I agree with the last - lets face it, the Army dont get protected after pulling the trigger so what hope have the rozzers got?

Im of the mind theres more to it than just cost though. Partly its us (the people), not wanting to follow the US, and trying to cling to romantic notions of yesteryear.
But apart from that, theres an unwillingness from the govt. It might be Boris the Tory in power but he sure as hell aint no Conservative. Strong on Law and Order is what we need, and him and weasel Cummings and that mad Dick woman are simply against that.
IMO of course.

I 'm mindful of an old RN JSP-385 training video. Bloke on jetty with a pistol shoots at people on the flighdeck - his oppo walks towards him and the shooter passes him the gun and they both walk away separate directions- can you shoot at any of them?

Imagine that scenario in say Brixton.. a BLM protest - mobile phones filming for YouTube galore, report of knives so ARV/tazer authorized. 'Gangland' gestures galore - often by people safe in the knowledge officers are already on a back-foot with ROE. Next report in Daily Mail "Aspiring musician tazered after he was caught up in a BLM protest march".
 

In_Twists

Old-Salt
You're not wrong with regards to the public perception, although I believe that as soon as they realise that people aren't getting shot left right and centre they will soon get over it.

Cost sadly is a major driver behind most things - it's not as simple as buying X number of Glocks (plus ancillaries , ammo etc) and on your way for instance. Training costs alone will be massive bearing in mind that you will need to have:

A suitable number of qualified trainers available (of whom the existing lot have their hands full with the existing AFO (and above) training) - So that means more trainers to be trained up.

Suitable armouries in stations

Training days to initially qualify - how long would this be for example? Existing AFO training has massively ramped up over the years due to the changing threats and increased expectation... Will a week of basic operating and SAA be enough? Will the standard response officer with his / her glock be expected to conduct an emergency search of a building involving an active shooter? In my opinion let's say a minimum of 2 weeks simply to give the officer a standing chance.

Most home office teams barely operate at minimum staffing levels (and often below) - Even staggering training will involve having to draft in others on overtime to plug gaps.

Ditto regarding re qualifying - remember this will be on top of every other refresher training that needs to be conducted.

It's not impossible to achieve this but it will cost a lot of money in the short - medium term. That's before anything else is taken into account such as your comment ;)

MATTs get done....
Where theres a will theres a way.
 

In_Twists

Old-Salt
I 'm mindful of an old RN JSP-385 training video. Bloke on jetty with a pistol shoots at people on the flighdeck - his oppo walks towards him and the shooter passes him the gun and they both walk away separate directions- can you shoot at any of them?

Imagine that scenario in say Brixton.. a BLM protest - mobile phones filming for YouTube galore, report of knives so ARV/tazer authorized. 'Gangland' gestures galore - often by people safe in the knowledge officers are already on a back-foot with ROE. Next report in Daily Mail "Aspiring musician tazered after he was caught up in a BLM protest march".

Yeah we can get bogged down in stuff or we can do whats right.
I know its not straightforward and I know there will be tough decisions. But I for one am sick of reading about blokes like PC Harper, sick of scrotes beating to death family guys, sick of the lawlessness in this country.
**** em. You wave a weapon about, youre getting it. Simple.
 
I had a Soviet 600 mm (I think it was. It went missing on a move 25 years ago) PhotoSniper kit for my Pentax Spotmatic. I wish I had it today as its use would guarantee an armed response form the police and claims of a "gun".

Yeara ago I saw a Ross Camera Gun that looked like a Lewsi Gun. It was going for about £150 - cheap way to guarantee a city wide lockdown!

The Russians did a "photosniper" for the Zenit SLR's - came in an attache case. It looked like crossbow so I'm sure it would get you noticed.
 
Children playing / shouting/screaming whilst playing does not come under the 'nuisance' laws though. Thats why people will often elaborate and add a 'concern' aspect... "Thery're always smoking drugs...I can hear arguing..."

I appreciate that, but any bobby can twist it to say a chap taking photographs is causing alarm and distress to security guards, which we all know is BS.

Terrorism, anti social behaviour, jesus wept!
 
The funniest was the photographer arrested because a WPC stated she had felt threatened by his size - 5' 11" and about 12 stone - and implied that she found it intimidating.

He complained about the arrest, so a police internal investigation was carried out, and unsurprisingly arresting someone because they were too tall was deemed unlawful
He was lucky he didn't have an offensive wife with him then.

With a nod to that paragon of modern policing, Constable Savage.
 

BaldBaBoon

War Hero
Might be just the area's I work in, but a call to a suspicious person that a member of the public or staff has seen is a very regular occurrence.

A lot are " I saw a bloke with a rucksack on and he looked suspicious ".........Due to the amount of these, this is as far as it goes.

Some of the reports are really interesting by an Intel perspective and if we do not locate them, a CCTV trawl can show it to be a really good spot by that MOP/MOS and definitely something that sets your hackles up.

A number of times there have been people really trying to get noticed or act in a manner that would get the average person a little worried,The reported suspect can turn out to be very well informed and has done their research and amounts to video's like this, or essentially a set up with other people.

The final category is very worrying and happens a fair amount. You get reports of a suspicious person and often the force turn up and the original suspect has gone...however, intel comes back by various means that several other parties ( not confronted at the time ) have been very interested and covertly recording the police response, great interest shown in where force vehicles are parked,officer numbers,where they stand for radio reception,how switched on they are.

You do not know what that call to someone taking photos is. There are people out there doing recce's and they do dress up as tourists and its not unknown at all for genuine journalists to have various agenda's including those that could cause harm.
 

Green_Homer

War Hero
Yeah we can get bogged down in stuff or we can do whats right.
I know its not straightforward and I know there will be tough decisions. But I for one am sick of reading about blokes like PC Harper, sick of scrotes beating to death family guys, sick of the lawlessness in this country.
**** em. You wave a weapon about, youre getting it. Simple.

I like to recommend reading Tony Long's book - Lethal Force. It is a very insightful read into police use of firearms
 
I 'm mindful of an old RN JSP-385 training video. Bloke on jetty with a pistol shoots at people on the flighdeck - his oppo walks towards him and the shooter passes him the gun and they both walk away separate directions- can you shoot at any of them?....

I'd guess the answer is you can't shoot either of them.

I can imagine the same scenario on the streets today - and I wouldn't be surprised if it's all agreed in advance.
 
A common burglar tactic is to boot a warehouse door and trigger the alarm - monitoring station will call police - burglar watches and notes reaction time of police and keyholder.
Burglar then boots warehouse door again - same response.

Then boots it again - KH turns up and leaves the alarm unset.

Repeat the next night...

Same again night after but burglar has mates and a van in tow on fake plates...

It's not beyond the bounds of credibility that anyone wishing to do a hostile recce would- several times first - do exactly what the bloke on the OPs post was doing. Next time police are wary of engaing with him...'he's a harmless Youtube knob...'

Next thing you know is the inevitable Daily Mail headline "suspect of whatever had been seen by police in the area several times..."
 

Green_Homer

War Hero
I appreciate that, but any bobby can twist it to say a chap taking photographs is causing alarm and distress to security guards, which we all know is BS.

Terrorism, anti social behaviour, jesus wept!

It might be the case that the guard is caused alarm or distress by it, then again it might not.

A lot will depend on how far the behaviour of the subject is going; that said there will also be some reasonable expectation of resilience on the guard in dealing with unhappy people as it will most likely be in the role profile.

However if you have old Mrs Miggins walking past witnessing it then you might have more of an argument that their behaviour is likely causing alarm / distress
 

BaldBaBoon

War Hero
If the stop and account does not provide good responses or dings your radar.....

1) " You have been detained for the purpose of a search " That should be the first line out if that's what you are going to do...

.which can often be the moment cuffs are put on if the situation demands it, a quick " you have been paced in cuffs because ....there is two of you/bigger/weapons alleged/near to dangerous area etc " nice to explain but it sometimes gets fruity at this point.



I will be searching you under Section 43 of the Terrorism Act 2000 or whatever

I am PC Digby .....or if on CT duties the shoulder number

From wIbbly Station...or if on CT duties, your force. MET

No requirement to show warrant card if in uniform

Grounds..Members of the public have reported you acting in a suspicious manner, photographing a security entrance and camera coverage

That is the basic info that you want to get across or at least make the effort to do so, the rest of the information is essentially a bonus.

Object of the search
Record of search etc

Bearing in mind a lot of people are not being searched because they are nice and fluffy, as soon as you approach, they often tense up or start looking for avenues of escape or start screaming for help from the rest of their mates...

I really do recommend that anyone who is interested to talk to their local coppers and see if you can do a ride along with them, a lot of forces will do this, and actually see what an angry search can be like or the mind set of officers who will be privy to information that you are not
 
It might be the case that the guard is caused alarm or distress by it, then again it might not.

A lot will depend on how far the behaviour of the subject is going; that said there will also be some reasonable expectation of resilience on the guard in dealing with unhappy people as it will most likely be in the role profile.

However if you have old Mrs Miggins walking past witnessing it then you might have more of an argument that their behaviour is likely causing alarm / distress
Having previously worked in a sector of the security industry - there are different 'types' of guards. You have your 1. 'bums on seats type' who are just topping up a pension and want an easy life.
Then there are the 2. 'clipboard & Hi-Viz' types who fancy themselves as being some sort of militia/police in theuir own right. The sort who turn up for a shift to manage parking in a bank carpark wearing a stab vest and belt kit. These are the likely sort who will cause/escalate issues. Often 'apprehending' people / collaring them citing 'health & safety or whatever.

Then you have the 3. switched on types of guards- normally work in prestige establishments and have quite a bit of experience in managing conflict and judging a situation. The problems also arise when you get type 1s and 2s rostered on the same shift as the type 3.

Similar can also be observed when watching how various Council parking enforcement officers act - with a certain demograph falling squarely into the type 1 & 2 category.

@BugsyIV
 

Ravers

LE
Kit Reviewer
Book Reviewer
I’m sure we’ve all got stories about the police doing absolutely **** all in the face of overwhelming evidence, or the justice system dolling out ridiculously light sentences for stuff.

Here’s mine.....

There is a big old Victorian mansion in my village. It’s one of those gaffs that’s too big to live in. It has its own ballroom and was formerly used as a school. It would make a nice hotel but it’s in a non-touristy part of the county and doesn’t have enough land with it.

It has a complex and chequered history. About 10 years back the house was rented out to a gang who turned some of the rooms into a cannabis farm.

Pretty good idea actually. Most cannabis farms are in the lofts of grotty council houses, not in 30 bedroom Palladian mansions. High electricity bills are part and parcel of gaffs like this so you’re not gonna attract any attention running a hydroponic farm.

All was going well until the police were tipped off. They did a full dawn raid but being a huge mansion, the criminals inside managed to get away out of one of the many back doors.

By all accounts burning cigarettes were still in ashtrays when the police got in.

Anyway, the landlord who was in on the game got banged up, I think most of the rest of the gang got away.

So the owner is now banged up, the house changes hands. New owner splits their time between Cumbria and Spain, so the house sits empty for quite a lot of the time.

Word spreads that there is “an abandoned drug lord’s mansion” in a sleepy little village in Cumbria. We’re talking Pablo Escobar shit.

Now this house is fairly hard to find unless you know where it is. You can’t see it from the road. If you were driving through the village looking for “the drug lord’s mansion” you would probably come to my house, as it’s the next biggest “mansiony” type place round here and easy to spot from the road.

For a few weeks we had randoms snooping around our place at night. They’d usually **** off as soon as they realised they were at the wrong place. We left some upstairs lights on every night to show the place was very occupied.

One day I notice a load of beat up shit box cars dumped on my land. Two were blocking the gate next to a cattle grid meaning we couldn’t move any livestock.

My semi tame gypsy mate also couldn’t get his horse and carriage through because of these cars.

So with a day of work on the farm basically written off and no sign of the owners of these cars, I phone plod and explain the situation. I explain that I suspect the owners of these cars are more than likely wild camping at the “drug mansion.”

About 3 hours later a very disinterested PCSO turns up, takes the number plates and then leaves without doing anything else.

Anyway, turns out the ******* had broken into the mansion to do some “urban exploring.”

They plastered their exploits all over YouTube and got over a million hits. This opened a tidal wave of copy cat “explorers”, squatters and thieves who turned up over the course of a few weeks and completely destroyed the place. I mean like 3 million quids worth of damage, arson and theft to this house.

Police did absolutely nothing to stop it. repeated crimes taking place, every single night over the course of weeks. The owner came back from Spain and experienced break ins every night. Imagine people breaking into your home, every single night, while you’re in it. They had smack addict squatters living in one half while they barricaded themselves into a bedroom. The owner put a video on social media of someone breaking into their house and pleading for the police to come.

I think there were two or three prosecutions in the end, the highest punishment being 300 hours of community service.

Community service for destroying and looting someone’s house and putting it on youtube.

By comparison there was a pissed up ******** waving his (Licensed) shotgun around (On his own farm) a few weeks back and that warranted 8 police cars and a ******* SWAT team.
 
Do you enjoy watching YouTube videos of people using unarmed Police they have no respect or fear off as Recreational punch bags?
Perhaps police need to go back to the days when they recruited large blokes, black or white, who were rugby playing, boxing types who were generally ex servicemen, miners, boilermakers, brickies, HGV drivers and other upper working class types who could handle themselves, but invariably f*ck up on the diversity questions and role play scenarios during the recruitment process.

Just an observation from 27 years service.
 

arcticfox042

War Hero
Sounds promising.

The Scumbag Legsweep effortlessly transitioning to a T Wave Sack of Shit Drop always a winner.

Fantastic, promote this officer to Deputy Chief Constable immediately....... put my faith back in the job.......
 
I’m sure we’ve all got stories about the police doing absolutely **** all in the face of overwhelming evidence, or the justice system dolling out ridiculously light sentences for stuff.

Here’s mine.....

There is a big old Victorian mansion in my village. It’s one of those gaffs that’s too big to live in. It has its own ballroom and was formerly used as a school. It would make a nice hotel but it’s in a non-touristy part of the county and doesn’t have enough land with it.

It has a complex and chequered history. About 10 years back the house was rented out to a gang who turned some of the rooms into a cannabis farm.

Pretty good idea actually. Most cannabis farms are in the lofts of grotty council houses, not in 30 bedroom Palladian mansions. High electricity bills are part and parcel of gaffs like this so you’re not gonna attract any attention running a hydroponic farm.

All was going well until the police were tipped off. They did a full dawn raid but being a huge mansion, the criminals inside managed to get away out of one of the many back doors.

By all accounts burning cigarettes were still in ashtrays when the police got in.

Anyway, the landlord who was in on the game got banged up, I think most of the rest of the gang got away.

So the owner is now banged up, the house changes hands. New owner splits their time between Cumbria and Spain, so the house sits empty for quite a lot of the time.

Word spreads that there is “an abandoned drug lord’s mansion” in a sleepy little village in Cumbria. We’re talking Pablo Escobar shit.

Now this house is fairly hard to find unless you know where it is. You can’t see it from the road. If you were driving through the village looking for “the drug lord’s mansion” you would probably come to my house, as it’s the next biggest “mansiony” type place round here and easy to spot from the road.

For a few weeks we had randoms snooping around our place at night. They’d usually **** off as soon as they realised they were at the wrong place. We left some upstairs lights on every night to show the place was very occupied.

One day I notice a load of beat up shit box cars dumped on my land. Two were blocking the gate next to a cattle grid meaning we couldn’t move any livestock.

My semi tame gypsy mate also couldn’t get his horse and carriage through because of these cars.

So with a day of work on the farm basically written off and no sign of the owners of these cars, I phone plod and explain the situation. I explain that I suspect the owners of these cars are more than likely wild camping at the “drug mansion.”

About 3 hours later a very disinterested PCSO turns up, takes the number plates and then leaves without doing anything else.

Anyway, turns out the ******* had broken into the mansion to do some “urban exploring.”

They plastered their exploits all over YouTube and got over a million hits. This opened a tidal wave of copy cat “explorers”, squatters and thieves who turned up over the course of a few weeks and completely destroyed the place. I mean like 3 million quids worth of damage, arson and theft to this house.

Police did absolutely nothing to stop it. repeated crimes taking place, every single night over the course of weeks. The owner came back from Spain and experienced break ins every night. Imagine people breaking into your home, every single night, while you’re in it. They had smack addict squatters living in one half while they barricaded themselves into a bedroom. The owner put a video on social media of someone breaking into their house and pleading for the police to come.

I think there were two or three prosecutions in the end, the highest punishment being 300 hours of community service.

Community service for destroying and looting someone’s house and putting it on youtube.

By comparison there was a pissed up ******** waving his (Licensed) shotgun around (On his own farm) a few weeks back and that warranted 8 police cars and a ******* SWAT team.

This all constitutes burglary. The squatters element complicates things further.

Did the owner put any security measures in place?
What exactly were your expectations of police response?
 
The law says you can't arrest for refusing to give your details, or infer suspicion from it.

There has to be reasonable suspicion of being involved in terrorism, way more than taking snaps of Poundland or using a camera in public.
A few years ago or if it was just outside offices etc then the security would have just been jobsworths or the business not wanting photos or video of their property.
Unless he was on an external part of their land there would have been nothing that could be done about it.
Because of the shopping centres protected status now under terrorism there are more grounds for the police.
The more experienced police woman may have picked up that he began to acknowledge videoing and then mid sentence switched to lieing.

She has been called out to a complaint, is being blatantly lied to, and he is being a dick.

The first opportunity was to stop when security asked him.
The next opportunity was to tell the truth to the police and just say he won’t do it again.
Another opportunity was to give his details.

There could have been no police presence or it could have been dealt with in a matter of minutes.

But that isn’t what he wanted, he wanted to provoke a response from security and the police and to make another YouTube video.

I take photos of pretty much anything, the majority on my phone, but on occasion do some street photography with my proper DSLR. The majority of people take no notice, even the police. On occasion a couple of people have said no. I’ve only been asked I think twice to not use people’s photos when photographing events. I deleted them in front of them - though they said I didnt need to, as they just didn’t want them published as they were not supposed to be there (I don’t want photos that I cannot use)
The only occasion I was more uncomfortable was with the photo of a China Town massage parlour doorway. A lady came out as I was taking pictures - she didn’t look pleased & I didn’t fancy walking over to tell her I’ll delete it and made a hasty retreat (in the wrong direction so I had to backtrack past again)

If he was just taking a photos of the sign then he had nothing to worry about, he could have given his details and if pressed could have willingly shown the photos. (Or if he told the truth he could have shown the video)
Because he had lied, he couldn’t ultimately show the photos - or if he does have any photos in showing them he would also have to show the video which didn’t match his lies.
 

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