The PFA is dead. Long live the PFA!

First time I’ve seen a list of the tests involved, the comment about racing snakes was tongue in cheek.
That's very much a summary, but those appear to be the tests and the standards set so far.
I can’t remember saying there should be different standards for men and women.
You seemed to do so in the post below, but as I said that may not have been your intention:
That’s strange in itself, the current test requirements are readily available and differs between age and gender, this is what I would like to see for the proposed tests, not posting them after making a media statement shows me something is amiss.
If that's not the case I've simply mis-read it. Are you saying, though, that in your view PES should be the same for all arms or have I mis-read that too?
 
I was just pointing out that the current tests are readily available with full requirements. I want these to be readily available to view as well.

There should be no difference in requirements for Male and female.

The requirements should be the same for all arms.
 
I was just pointing out that the current tests are readily available with full requirements. I want these to be readily available to view as well.

There should be no difference in requirements for Male and female.
Understood, but they apparently haven't decided the requirements / pass level yet and are waiting for the results from the trials so that they're 'achievable' (or, depending on your POV / cynicism, pointless).
The requirements should be the same for all arms.
I'm completely lost by this, since obviously different arms have very different physical requirements, whether it's a cyber soldier fighting from his laptop, a drone guy flying his UAV, an engineer building a bridge, tankie bashing tracks, gunner loading guns, EOD guy working in a suit, dismounted infantryman tabbing it, etc, etc.

If the PES are "the same for all arms" they'll be either ridiculously low for some or unnecessarily high for others or, for many, both as some tests will be set too low and others set too high.

I just can't understand why anyone would think all branches of the Army had the same physical demands.
 
Did the BFT / CFT ever test fitness, or were they more a test of determination and attitude.
If you were shit at running/tabbing then determination/attitude wouldnt be the greatest of help.
 
Do we have a full list of the tests involved yet? Al I’ve seen are vids and pics of people gurning about doing some form of battle PT.
Infantry:
Test 1 - 4km, 40kg in 50 mins

Test 2 - 2km, 25kg best effort under 15mins

Test 3 - F&M test 120 metres 8 second move 8 second rest finish with 15m leapoard crawl and 15 m sprint

Test 4 - can drag 110kg over 20m in under 35 sec carrying 9.5 webbing plus b/armour and rifle

15 min rest

Test 5 240m Jerry can carry in under 4 mins

Test 6 - single lift 35kg followed by single lift 70kg

Test 7 - repeat lift and carry 20 x 20kg burdens over 40 meters can’t remember time limit

5 min between each test, takes 4 hours to take 10 people through.

Source: PTI mucker involved in trials.
 
Infantry:
Test 1 - 4km, 40kg in 50 mins

Test 2 - 2km, 25kg best effort under 15mins

Test 3 - F&M test 120 metres 8 second move 8 second rest finish with 15m leapoard crawl and 15 m sprint

Test 4 - can drag 110kg over 20m in under 35 sec carrying 9.5 webbing plus b/armour and rifle

15 min rest

Test 5 240m Jerry can carry in under 4 mins

Test 6 - single lift 35kg followed by single lift 70kg

Test 7 - repeat lift and carry 20 x 20kg burdens over 40 meters can’t remember time limit

5 min between each test, takes 4 hours to take 10 people through.

Source: PTI mucker involved in trials.
Test two, I can never really understand the point of "best effort". Just tell the blokes what time they have to be in at.

Test five, That seems to be a very long time given to move 240 metres even if you are carrying a couple of Jerry cans.

4 hours to get just 10 people, do you know if that is one PTI per 10 people?

Test one and two look a bit tasty, Ive done test two with 15kgs and I was hanging out my arse.

Any news of the Logistic Corps tests? Do we need to bring a camp cot with us?
 
Test two, I can never really understand the point of "best effort". Just tell the blokes what time they have to be in at.
Agreed.

Test five, That seems to be a very long time given to move 240 metres even if you are carrying a couple of Jerry cans.

True, but all tests done on same day one after another so suppose fatigue sets in?

4 hours to get just 10 people, do you know if that is one PTI per 10 people?

Not sure so don't want to give duff gen.

Test one and two look a bit tasty, Ive done test two with 15kgs and I was hanging out my arse.

Same, but this is the standard for DCC troops.

Any news of the Logistic Corps tests? Do we need to bring a camp cot with us?

BCC troops assesments/standards expected around April '19. PFA/AFT still extant til at least then for us REMFy types.
 
How are people expected to pass this if they cant' pass the existing tests? Anybody who can't do the current 1.5 mile run, or struggles with it, is pretty much snookered.
 
Test two, I can never really understand the point of "best effort". Just tell the blokes what time they have to be in at.
Like some of the other tests, it's scored - not just a pass / fail.
Test five, That seems to be a very long time given to move 240 metres even if you are carrying a couple of Jerry can
From the various vids / reports it's done in a series of 30m shuttle walks and you're allowed to put them down and have a five second rest each shuttle, so it's not non-stop.
4 hours to get just 10 people, do you know if that is one PTI per 10 people?
Must be - add the times and rest times together and you get three hours per person.
Test one and two look a bit tasty, Ive done test two with 15kgs and I was hanging out my arse.
To put an inf perspective on that, I used to do the 1.5 mile / 2.4 km BFT with over three minutes to spare (regardless of boots / trainers / age); doing it with pretty much exactly that kit (25 kg) added two minutes, so allowing 15 mins for 2 kms I'd have had five minutes to spare so it'd be easier. The same applied, in comparative terms, to pretty well everyone in my rifle pl / sp pl / rifle coy - those who were slower / closer to the max time without kit usually had comparatively more time to spare with kit, up to around the 25 kg fully loaded level, while the 'lightweight racing snakes' had comparatively less as the weight slowed them down more.

It depends on the amount and type of PT, so I'd suggest that if you had similar opportunity for five sessions of PT a week (or the equivalent, with some longer than others) you'd have probably been the same.
How are people expected to pass this if they cant' pass the existing tests? Anybody who can't do the current 1.5 mile run, or struggles with it, is pretty much snookered.
Remember this is inf / DCC standard and if someone who's inf can't do the current 1.5 mile run or struggles with it they shouldn't be there at all, even now. I can't see anything remotely challenging there for inf.
 
Remember this is inf / DCC standard and if someone who's inf can't do the current 1.5 mile run or struggles with it they shouldn't be there at all, even now. I can't see anything remotely challenging there for inf.
I'm refering to the claims that recruits are passing out without having passed the current tests.
 
I'm refering to the claims that recruits are passing out without having passed the current tests.
Well, as @CAARPS pointed out, the "policy" is that they shouldn't be, but if someone else with rather more clout has a different policy then it doesn't matter what the tests are.

If, as has been discussed elsewhere recently and is evidently the case, they're allowed to continue and soldier on and be posted, promoted, etc, regardless, then it's all a rather pointless exercise in lacquering a dog turd.
 
Looking at the research done by the Occupational Performance Research Group at Chichester Uni it's disappointing not just that it's taken an unbelievable three years but that very little research has actually been done (it's all available at the link), views are minimal, none has been peer reviewed (particularly surprising given the parallel changes in the US military, who haven't cited any of it), and that it reached no conclusions as to the standard required.

Even research for the RM swimming test, by the same team as part of the study, has more views than the Army.

What's very clearly spelt out, even for the RM swim test where safety's a major issue as it includes recovery after falling overboard, is that it confirms exactly what @stacker1 thought - the 'standards' have nothing to do with what's needed and required to do the job adequately, but they're based on what sample groups can do.

Un-B-lievable.
 
Test one and two look a bit tasty, Ive done test two with 15kgs and I was hanging out my arse.
Converting that to 'old money' and standards / distances, thats actually a pretty appalling level of fitness, particularly for someone banging on about Fatty McFatFeck.

It's just under 1 1/4 miles, so at that speed 3 minutes less than a BFT / 1.5 mile distance. It's 5 mph so a slow jogging pace, for 15 minutes, carrying what's little more than 'skeleton order' plus weapon (total 15 kgs / 33 lbs) Any inf pl should be able to knock that off in 10 minutes (12 mins for 1.5 miles) with no preparation or problem with ease - as should inf recruits by the end of Ph1.
 
Looks like the entrance fitness test is changing too. Any gen on what the new test may entail?
The site I linked to, with the papers by the Chichester Uni team, said that they were reviewing 'point of entry' tests as well as PES so 'yes' those must be changing too to reflect the PES.

As some are already similar to the PES I'd guess the changes will be minor to include
  • powerbag lift
  • powerbag lift and carry shuttles
  • deadlift / cas extraction (40 kg?)
  • jerry can carry
I'd guess the run will also be changed so the standard can be lowered while preventing direct comparisons being made, so possibly a 2 km jog as a squad (12 mins?) followed by a 2 km individual best effort.
 
The site I linked to, with the papers by the Chichester Uni team, said that they were reviewing 'point of entry' tests as well as PES so 'yes' those must be changing too to reflect the PES.

As some are already similar to the PES I'd guess the changes will be minor to include
  • powerbag lift
  • powerbag lift and carry shuttles
  • deadlift / cas extraction (40 kg?)
  • jerry can carry
I'd guess the run will also be changed so the standard can be lowered while preventing direct comparisons being made, so possibly a 2 km jog as a squad (12 mins?) followed by a 2 km individual best effort.
Many thanks, John. I’ve always been better at shifting objects quickly than shifting myself...
 
Converting that to 'old money' and standards / distances, thats actually a pretty appalling level of fitness, particularly for someone banging on about Fatty McFatFeck.

It's just under 1 1/4 miles, so at that speed 3 minutes less than a BFT / 1.5 mile distance. It's 5 mph so a slow jogging pace, for 15 minutes, carrying what's little more than 'skeleton order' plus weapon (total 15 kgs / 33 lbs) Any inf pl should be able to knock that off in 10 minutes (12 mins for 1.5 miles) with no preparation or problem with ease - as should inf recruits by the end of Ph1.
I've been with the infantry Johnny boy and they are not always as fit as you like to pretend. Some of them don't get under 10 minutes in their PFA so don't pretend they can do it with weight on their back.
Also although it says 2km I meant 2.4.
 
The POE testing will include some elements of the PES at a lower standard. PT in Basic will include development of phys to an initial standard. Further developmental training will take place through phase 2 to an intermediate standard (the one expected initially by those currently in btw) followed by 13 weeks special to arm phys to train to the PES for your particular Arm/element.

currently serving personnel are expected to need the 13 week build up also to PES.
 
I've been with the infantry Johnny boy and they are not always as fit as you like to pretend. Some of them don't get under 10 minutes in their PFA so don't pretend they can do it with weight on their back.
Also although it says 2km I meant 2.4.
So as accurate as ever ...

10 kgs 'on their back' and 5 for the weapon is hardly "weight' !

Things may well have changed, but 12 mins for that sort of 'run' would be below standard for recruits after Ph 1 and very poor for any inf pl I've ever commanded. The A/Tk pl, for example, could pass a BFT (boots) in around 11 minutes with each sect pulling a gun (700 lbs / 320 kgs) and a couple of drill rds (60 lbs / 27 kgs).

15 minutes, with or without hanging your arrse out, is still a seriously bad time for that sort of run and, carrying only 15 kgs, would have meant a BFT fail by at least one or two minutes.
 
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