The path of self destruction. Why can't some blokes avoid it?

Mölders 1

War Hero
Drink is an accelerant to so many marriage/relationship/friendship breakups. I've seen it cause so many issues between people that I wonder about the cost/benefit of booze.

A workmate and generally very decent guy killed himself after he and his girlfriend had a row. He was drunk, but not enough to stop him putting a hose from his exhaust pipe through his car window (back when 4-star was a thing).

A friend of mine took to being an alcoholic, to the point where his breakfast was Becks, lunch was whisky and supper was brandy. Needless to say, he lost his driving licence, his job and his wife in that order.

I think it just magnifies any argument, any relationship flaw to cracking point if you let it.

Taking that just a little further, Alcohol Abuse was epidemic in the Army until more recent times.

Doubtless all that Drinking destroyed the Careers and Marriages of many otherwise good men.
 
Firstly- please dont let this descend into a Bugsy bashing thread. It's quite a serious subject and could even affect members on here.

Based on my experience of taking calls / online reports of domestics, and then seeing the subsequent follow-ups and...etc...there is often a very common denominator...

Mobile phones.

Mobile phones kept face down so any alerts that might be set up can't be be seen.

Phone rings and either hangs up straight away then shortly after disappears to "go toilet".

A quite major emerging issue since Covid etc and kids having Ipads is...All the kids have an Ipad and...the mother sets them up under her Icloud account. She goes to bed at 20:00 and husband is still downstairs. She failed to disable messaging etc on the kid's Ipads and husband has a ringside seat of his wife messaging her online "pash".

It really is a serious and growing issue.
Early warning sign: other half suddenly puts a lock code on their tablet/phone.
 
Was your mate punching way above when he got with his wife? Often distinctly average looking blokes inexplicably land themselves with an absolute stunner who just genuinely likes them for who they are, but the bloke starts acting like a paranoid nutcase thinking that she's shagging everyone better looking than him. Jealousy is such an ugly emotion.
 

ipso_facto

War Hero
Happy POETS day gents.
As per the title of this thread, i've started this thread on this forum because there probably isn't a single member who hasn't witnessed this in one form or another, but just what causes perfectly normal blokes to self destruct, and go in to a full on melt down?
A good mate of mine has just split up with his wife of thirty years because he wont stop accusing her of seeing other men.
He has even tried to trap her in a honey trap type of scenario.
Everyone had tried to convince him that there was no way that his wife would cheat on him - even his mum and dad thought that he was just being paranoid.
Alas, this honey trap that he arranged for his wife, whilst she was working away, was the final straw for her. And she has now left him.
I don't know whether he is suffering from some sort of mental illness but her leaving him has reinforced his belief that she is cheating on him.
And this is what he is now telling everyone. Yet not a single person who knows them believes that she would cheat on him.

There are two important factors in a relationship - love and respect. However, people don't realise the priority is different for men and women. For men respect comes first. They need to feel respected in a relationship and they know deep down inside they have to earn it. For women love comes first and they know they can't demand it but some still do.

Having said that I suspect your friend has mental health issues that is being fed by the spiritual dimension. Those heading for self destruction, and most of humanity can fall into that category one way or another, is because there is a spiritual vacuum inside that cannot be filled with anything the world has to offer, although people try.
 
A good mate of mine has just split up with his wife of thirty years . . . .

And she has now left him.

At least, because of this age, he won't be moving back into the block boring the tits off the singlies with his woes and drowning his sad-arse sorrows at the Naafi Bar for the next two years, like all the other sad divorcee's

Was your mate punching way above when he got with his wife? Often distinctly average looking blokes inexplicably land themselves with an absolute stunner who just genuinely likes them for who they are, but the bloke starts acting like a paranoid nutcase thinking that she's shagging everyone better looking than him. Jealousy is such an ugly emotion.

This describes my last girlfriend before my wife. Fun, vivacious, attractive and very charismatic. I was sure she was seeing other blokes, although I didn't have any evidence. It got too much, so as much as I didn't want to, I split from her to save my sanity.

Not long after she met a guy, got married, a couple of kids and had a great marriage for many years until her husband decided to poke his PA/secretary. I was probably paranoid, but two weeks later, I met my now wife of 29 years, so silver lining an' all that
 
... But you are regularly wrong on most subjects.
As you are on this. Dangerously so.

Stoicism/Stiff upper lip works up to a point. Then the coiled spring breaks. There is no "Never ending war." That is the kind of nonsense that drives people to view everything as a conflict that must be fought. When the stress is due to the person overloading themselves, then that is them declaring war on themselves, and making themselves their own self hating enemy.
That view is part of the bloody problem. It is self destructive.
(However, it does allow those in a position of strength to imply that the people they are oppressing just need to accept it and suck it up.)

The OP has flagged up the sudden onset of self destructive impulses. I have also seen this, when very stable, respectable types suddenly break under accumulated stress.

Others have pointed out that there is often a long family history of learned self destructiveness.

Both have their role, but there is a great deal of evidence that the mind is a very fragile thing, and the slightest change in the brain or brain chemistry can cause immense changes in personality or behaviour. Being stoic when there is a neurological or physical trauma issue won't help in the slightest.

If you really want to get all Ancient Greek, adopt the Delphic aphorisms.
"Know thyself."
"Nothing to excess"
"Surety brings ruin".
I couldn't disagree with you more.... Anyone who says they're don't have bouts of mental health are liars, or in denial. Without stoicism we wouldn't have any society at all, unless the magic money tree is a permanent fixture. Maybe stoicism derives from religious faith, or underpinned by family and responsibility that prevents people losing the plot.

As for sudden onset and losing the plot, I've noted those people are usually the ones who hide from personal responsibility and to be frank about it are totally 'selfish'. You say its self destructive stoicism, I say its honesty, that the world is not your plaything and you have to find a way to fit and compromise your self.

One notes a lot of people who talk up 'change' from Prince Harry down to a BLM/Antifa activist are the sorts of people, who want the whole world to change in the tone of edmund blackadders advice about his love for Bob.
 

Yokel

LE
You seem to be confusing mental health with mental illness. I know that is the odd way the media talks about - but we all have mental as well as physical health. Stoicism is a problem if it stops people from recognising problems. It can be useful in being able to imagine that the worse outcome is not as terrible as we might fear, which can reduce the anxiety and associated behaviours.
 
I couldn't disagree with you more.... Anyone who says they're don't have bouts of mental health are liars, or in denial. Without stoicism we wouldn't have any society at all, unless the magic money tree is a permanent fixture. Maybe stoicism derives from religious faith, or underpinned by family and responsibility that prevents people losing the plot.

As for sudden onset and losing the plot, I've noted those people are usually the ones who hide from personal responsibility and to be frank about it are totally 'selfish'. You say its self destructive stoicism, I say its honesty, that the world is not your plaything and you have to find a way to fit and compromise your self.

One notes a lot of people who talk up 'change' from Prince Harry down to a BLM/Antifa activist are the sorts of people, who want the whole world to change in the tone of edmund blackadders advice about his love for Bob.
Disagree with me all you like.
You are still a dangerous idiot, and a remarkably ill informed one to boot.

Your faith in "stoicism" appears to be a jumbled mess of garbage. Since you clearly haven't the foggiest idea of what it is, you shouldn't preach it.
Firstly, there are thousands of societies that existed long before the Greeks, and long after, that have never heard of it or practicised it.
Stoicism has very little to do with religious faith. It is a code of ethics, not God given morality.
Sudden onset mental illness can affect everyone. Selfish or not.
 
Disagree with me all you like.
You are still a dangerous idiot, and a remarkably ill informed one to boot.

Your faith in "stoicism" appears to be a jumbled mess of garbage. Since you clearly haven't the foggiest idea of what it is, you shouldn't preach it.
Firstly, there are thousands of societies that existed long before the Greeks, and long after, that have never heard of it or practicised it.
Stoicism has very little to do with religious faith. It is a code of ethics, not God given morality.
Sudden inset mental illness can affect everyone.
And your dangerous for arguing against people maintaining equilibrium and anyone who follows a religious faith is conscious of how much stoicism and the practice of avoiding excess are the ones who do maintain balance.

The parable of faith and stony ground is the emptiness in your solutions that actually leads to the sudden onset mental illness. The why is simple, because people simply displace the mental health onto obsessions around career or fitness and when these things don't nourish the soul and things go wrong that person has nothing else left to grip onto reality and break.
 
As my step-father descended into dementia he increasingly accused my mother of having an affair which, not surprisingly, quite upset her. I have to admit I probably didn't help when I suggest she should consider it an honour that she could attract someone in her mid-80s' but I digress. As his dementia worsened the accusations became increasingly vocal and aggressive to the point where I felt that I might need to physically intervene. My mother always maintained that he would never hit her but I wasn't so sure as there was history from his first marriage.
 
And your dangerous for arguing against people maintaining equilibrium and anyone who follows a religious faith is conscious of how much stoicism and the practice of avoiding excess are the ones who do maintain balance.

The parable of faith and stony ground is the emptiness in your solutions that actually leads to the sudden onset mental illness. The why is simple, because people simply displace the mental health onto obsessions around career or fitness and when these things don't nourish the soul and things go wrong that person has nothing else left to grip onto reality and break.
So, "stoicism" in your mind is just religious faith, whereas people who actually follow a faith do follow that, and not Stoicism.
Because it was a pagan code of ethics.
Got it. Proof you are an idiot.

So, when a religious person has a mental health crisis brought on by overwork and stress it is their fault for lacking in faith and not nourishing their soul.
Fine.
Bloody good job you never became a therapist or social worker.
 

DaManBugs

LE
Book Reviewer
And your dangerous for arguing against people maintaining equilibrium and anyone who follows a religious faith is conscious of how much stoicism and the practice of avoiding excess are the ones who do maintain balance.

The parable of faith and stony ground is the emptiness in your solutions that actually leads to the sudden onset mental illness. The why is simple, because people simply displace the mental health onto obsessions around career or fitness and when these things don't nourish the soul and things go wrong that person has nothing else left to grip onto reality and break.
Is there any chance you could explain what you mean by "nourish the soul"? To me, it sounds very much like something a priest, or similar would say. Something so totally abstract as to be meaningless.

MsG
 
You seem to be confusing mental health with mental illness. I know that is the odd way the media talks about - but we all have mental as well as physical health. Stoicism is a problem if it stops people from recognising problems. It can be useful in being able to imagine that the worse outcome is not as terrible as we might fear, which can reduce the anxiety and associated behaviours.
Look at Prince Harry or for that matter any squaddie ? very few of them live life to the stoic principles of self denial from excess, outside of working hours. But in working hours, you maintain the pretense and that I guess is where your mixing the two up, as it should apply to both.

If Harry hadn't met a Californian girl full of modern mumbo-jumbo so beloved of the likes of the modern media and who tells him he doesn't have to make his bed if he doesn't want to. In almost all cases the 'problems' are with a persons 'self' and its indulgent and immature to believe a persons environment can be altered all that much, without running away only for the problems to manifest themselves in other ways a time down the line.
.
 
Is there any chance you could explain what you mean by "nourish the soul"? To me, it sounds very much like something a priest, or similar would say. Something so totally abstract as to be meaningless.

MsG
We either live in the abstract and find some understanding of existence, or find something to distract us from thinking about it and that is the denial which can lead to an existential crisis when life takes something away from you and forces you to make the bed and you rebel against authority.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
No one size fits all in these situations so trying to pigeon hole things isn't going to work.
 
We either live in the abstract and find some understanding of existence, or find something to distract us from thinking about it and that is the denial which can lead to an existential crisis when life takes something away from you and forces you to make the bed and you rebel against authority.
"Make the bed."
Oh no.
Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules cobblers, beloved of all kinds of Neo Fascist fanbois.
Now we know where you are coming from. It's not stoicism. Or religion. Or even "nourishment for the soul".
It's the craven submission to authority.
"Suck it up, weakling. Its good for you. Big Brother knows what's best, so you don't need to worry your little head about it."
 

Yokel

LE
"Make the bed."
Oh no.
Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules cobblers, beloved of all kinds of Neo Fascist fanbois.
Now we know where you are coming from. It's not stoicism. Or religion. Or even "nourishment for the soul".
It's the craven submission to authority.
"Suck it up, weakling. Its good for you. Big Brother knows what's best, so you don't need to worry your little head about it."

I am not sure that the twelve rules were about submission to authority, or that he likes neo fascists any more than communists. He does explain what the rules actually mean, and the rule about tidy your bedroom was basically saying work on yourself before the world. It is relevant to this discussion as you have far more control over yourself than anyone else.

If you look at Peterson's books or videos, you will see he promotes the idea of the individual as a moral agent.

I do not think that @Emcon Ecomcon was referring to that either.
 
I am not sure that the twelve rules were about submission to authority, or that he likes neo fascists any more than communists. He does explain what the rules actually mean, and the rule about tidy your bedroom was basically saying work on yourself before the world. It is relevant to this discussion as you have far more control over yourself than anyone else.

If you look at Peterson's books or videos, you will see he promotes the idea of the individual as a moral agent.

I do not think that @Emcon Ecomcon was referring to that either.
I wish I could believe that.

Ecomecon seems to have some weird, strictly personal concept of stoicism that he has muddled together with some sort of mystical ascetic quasi- religious morality.

(Neither make much sense, unless you are the sort of religious mystic who aids their meditation with a pint of absinthe and funny mushrooms.)

However-.He has quite a bit of previous track record for rather pro authoritarian postings, so I am inherently suspicious of his motives. Strangely (or not,) Peterson seems to have a big following among similar types.

I am VERY suspicious of any advice he gives in dealing with mental illness.
 
I am not sure that the twelve rules were about submission to authority, or that he likes neo fascists any more than communists. He does explain what the rules actually mean, and the rule about tidy your bedroom was basically saying work on yourself before the world. It is relevant to this discussion as you have far more control over yourself than anyone else.

If you look at Peterson's books or videos, you will see he promotes the idea of the individual as a moral agent.

I do not think that @Emcon Ecomcon was referring to that either.
Personal Responsibility is all about submitting your own will to a higher power and a tidied bedroom and a child who is clean can at the basic level flow all sorts of positive effects in life. Most parents who care for their kids try to in-culture that stoic ideal and a morally principled way of thinking that Peterson referenced constantly in relation to life lessons from the bible as ways to avoid many of the dangerous lines of thought that flow from a persons out-of-control 'self'.

The problem with Hector and his analysis is its predicated on self pity projected onto others and a large dose of ideological possession. The idea, that you can simply delete your past to resolve problems, or in the present run away from the problems as Prince Harry did, or most silly of all that you control the future is exactly why mental health is a war with yourself and everything around you and to avoid externalising that war, you need something stoic and better still maintain that stoicism with your self.
 
You're one to talk about being mentally deranged you lying, fantasist twat.

You posting here is a bit like Hitler lecturing someone over the dangers of racism.
But would Herr Hitler have regarded himself as a racist? Or would he even had cared?
 
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