The outcome in court

#1
As some of you may remember, i said i had to appear in court soon.

Well is is finally done, when i got to court though, they informed me the charge had been changed to a section 4! I was not impressed about that and thought i was in for it for sure!

Anyway, long story short, i pleading guilty and given a 12 month unconditional discharge, so my understanding is that as long as i dont reoffend within 12 months then all is good.

My OC has told me i will be getting charged by the army pretty soon, am i right in believing that i will be charged with bringing the army into distrepute?

I am currently only an acting CPL due to not completing JCLM yet, (January) so my sub rank is clearly LCPL

Considering the outcome of the section 4 (plus court costs of £100) what is it from here the army will likely do, i know there are many options open to them, but has any one had previous experience with this?

All feedback will be apprechiated, as always.
 
E

EScotia

Guest
#2
As some of you may remember, i said i had to appear in court soon.

Well is is finally done, when i got to court though, they informed me the charge had been changed to a section 4! I was not impressed about that and thought i was in for it for sure!

Anyway, long story short, i pleading guilty and given a 12 month unconditional discharge, so my understanding is that as long as i dont reoffend within 12 months then all is good.

My OC has told me i will be getting charged by the army pretty soon, am i right in believing that i will be charged with bringing the army into distrepute?

I am currently only an acting CPL due to not completing JCLM yet, (January) so my sub rank is clearly LCPL

Considering the outcome of the section 4 (plus court costs of £100) what is it from here the army will likely do, i know there are many options open to them, but has any one had previous experience with this?

All feedback will be apprechiated, as always.
Your circumstances will be different from everyone else's so it would be like comparing chalk & cheese. Read AGAI's to see what options are open to your CO and try hazarding a guess to the likely outcome.
 
#5
How is the army allowed to punish you again. Surely you've been to court and been sentenced, that should be then end of it. Any solicitors/barrack room lawyers able to give any law/right where the army has no right to punish you for the crime twice.
 
P

PrinceAlbert

Guest
#6
If I were to be charged with something that I had already gone to court for, and been punished for, I'd elect courts marshal.
 
#7
You will only get agai action because you attended Court and bringing Army into disrepute.

check Agai67 to see what action will receive?
 
#9
Long time since I was in the mob but I am aware that in civi street, an employer can take disciplinary action against an employee if they are facing charges that might have a bearing on their employment.

They can also sustain any action taken against an employee even if the employee is find not guilty in a court of law.

Of course none of that is applicable to what's being considered here in a military context but there are some similarities?
 
#10
If I were to be charged with something that I had already gone to court for, and been punished for, I'd elect courts marshal.

I’mwith PA on this also. Tell them to do one. They may try to bring up some other charge and pretend it is unrelated.

But for **** sake don’t take legal advice from anyone on the internet.

Talk to a solicitor that deals in military law (See Soldier mag). In any further discussions with the your CoC let them know that you are doing so, the chances are the charge will go away.
 
#11
He's not being charged with the same offence.

He is being charged with a seperate military offence that he will have deemed to have committed on conviction in civil court.

I think Section 70 of the MML applied. This has been replaced Blythe Manual of Service Law.
 
#12
I agree with PA, if it were me I'd elect Court Martial and get myself a decent lawyer.
good call. politely state you have sought legal advice (and follow it through...) and try your hand. A brief may cost you a few hundred quid which is small beer when he stops your career going south. A outcome which may take you a couple of years to recover from.
 
#13
I'd be very careful about going the CM route. IF you're going to be charged with the same offence (which I very much doubt), then the advice some are giving here to go CM may be best for you - back it up with professional advice!

I'm with dingerr on this, though, and if you are being charged with bringing the Army into disrepute (far more likely), then I would be inclined be contrite, accept your award and crack on. Again - take advice from a professional if you're thinking of going CM.
 
#14
Surely this will now be dealt with via AGAI, and not further criminal (albeit military) proceedings? You cannot in law be charged/tried/convicted of the same offence twice.

I understand AGAI is the norm, and you might be looking at major rather than minor action.
 
#15
@ the OP

Speak to your SSM/CSM and ask what you can do to demonstrate you are still a capable NCO and that you want to make amends to the Army and prove your worth. Take any shitty jobs going, look for their shitty jobs and do them without being asked. Best of all identify a job that will need a few extra bods, lead them and get it done.

Failing that get yourself in a position so you can't get bust - An Ammo Storeman has to be an NCO. No one wants to do the job or the course and both are ******* easy.
 
#16
everyone thats been to court and been charged will face major agai 67 afterwards, basically your failing the service test, i.e. drink driving is the most common one. with major agai you can recieve a mark time (i.e. no pay rises, wont be on the promotion boards, rebuke, letter of censure, you can now also be demoted two ranks. you wont be charged, you will simply go infront of the CO for a major agai.

dont listen to the barrack room lawyers about getting a court martial, you cant be charged etc and all of that.
 
#18
Section 4 of what????

And there is no such thing as an unconditional discharge! It's either absolute or conditional.
 
#19
Section 4 Public order act most likely:

[h=3]Section 4[/h] By virtue of section 4(2), section 4 can occur in a public and private place but not a dwelling.
The definition of 'dwelling' is contained in section 8 of the Act . Where common parts (a communal landing) were the means of access to living accommodation, they were not part of a dwelling, even though access was via an entry phone system, and were not part of the living area or home (Rukwira v DPP 1993 Crim L R 882).
The following types of conduct are examples which may at least be capable of amounting to threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour:

  • threats made towards innocent bystanders or individuals carrying out public service duties;
  • the throwing of missiles by a person taking part in a demonstration or other public gathering where no injury is caused;
    scuffles or incidents of violence or threats of violence committed in the context of a brawl (such as in or in the vicinity of a public house);
  • incidents which do not justify a charge of assault where an individual is picked on by a gang.
Conduct which may be capable of amounting to threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour for the purposes of an offence under section 4 will be more serious than that required under section 5 or section 4A.
 
#20
My OC has told me i will be getting charged by the army pretty soon
No he hasn't - you should listen more.

There is a huge difference between being 'charged' for a criminal offence, and being 'administered' for your professional shortcomings. You've already had one, now you are going to get the other.


everyone thats been to court and been charged will face major agai 67 afterwards, basically your failing the service test, i.e. drink driving is the most common one. with major agai you can recieve a mark time (i.e. no pay rises, wont be on the promotion boards, rebuke, letter of censure, you can now also be demoted two ranks. you wont be charged, you will simply go infront of the CO for a major agai.

dont listen to the barrack room lawyers about getting a court martial, you cant be charged etc and all of that.
What he said!

It's all here in black and white:

http://freespace.virgin.net/lynn.farr/agai_67 administrative action.pdf

(Ignore everything to do with 'Minor Administrative Action', you're hitting the big time)

Para 67.05 explains why you could (and should) be 'administered'

And Page 67-D4-2 is what your CO will use to guide his decision, I would suggest the very minimum he would consider your misconduct is High (Very Serious Misconduct).

I think you will soon be seeing a change in rank.
 

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