The next Reich, coming to us sooner than we thought?

#81
Indeed. Subversion was started by KGB. Puppets played by puppets played by puppets.
A bit like your Russian doll, no? Angela Merkel thinks she knows but she is being played.
Jeremy Corbyn and entourage are "useful idiots".

It will all backfire spectacularly.
KGB emerged only in 20th century while the problem in question has centuries long history. Why the Roman Empire did fall? Rome was overcrowded by barbarians, people of not Roman descent. As a result armed forces became ethnically not Roman but just foreign mercenaries. Current wave of refugees in Europe will be used to build police, armed forces with the same effect in distant future. Just wait.
 
#82
KGB emerged only in 20th century while the problem in question has centuries long history. Why the Roman Empire did fall? Rome was overcrowded by barbarians, people of not Roman descent. As a result armed forces became ethnically not Roman but just foreign mercenaries. Current wave of refugees in Europe will be used to build police, armed forces with the same effect in distant future. Just wait.
You could have a point there but the agitprop endemic will be the conduit.
 
#83
Putin's agitprop is not MY in any sense.
As a private person I express my own views.
When they continue to align with your agitprop sites, it remains your agitprop. When they differ (only on items re Putin), you may have a point.
It was a loud case in Israel but there was only 8 so called Nazis. It is indeed a handful.
There's plenty of extremists including neo Nazi groups in Israel
Why the law against Nazi propaganda was passed in Russia in 2014?
It's politics.
U.S., Ukraine Vote Against Russian Measure Condemning Nazism At UN
Radio Free Europe? They got their numbers wrong again. I always thought you preferred primary sources?

Anyway, was Putin and the Duma prescient when they passed a law in 2014 about a UN debate which took place two years later?
United Nations Official Document

General Assembly Adopts 50 Third Committee Resolutions, as Diverging Views on Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity Animate Voting | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases
As the Assembly took up the report on “Elimination of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance” (document A/71/482), which contained three draft resolutions and one draft decision, a recorded vote was requested on a draft resolution titled, “Combating glorification of Nazism, neo-Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance”.

The Assembly adopted that text by a recorded vote of 136 in favour, to 2 against (Ukraine, United States), with 49 abstentions.
The vote passed and is likely to be taken as much notice of in Russia as previous UN statements such as the condemning of the invasion of Crimea.
So the law in Russia was passed to be used in political games on the world stage.
How was the Russian legislation passed in 2014 because of a UN statement in 2016? If you fail to address or acknowledge the reasons, you're as much a part of the problem.
 
#84
My comment are in bold
When they (who are 'they'?) continue to align with your agitprop sites (personally I haven't any agitprop sites), it remains your agitprop (It's Putin's, Russian agitprop. Not my one). When they differ (only on items re Putin), you may have a point.
Is Mail your newspaper? Do you bear any responsibility for its content? No?
Equally I don't bear any responsibility for Putin's agitprop outlets.
Well, read RT, watch it if you like. But they are not my in any sense.
 
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#85
How was the Russian legislation passed in 2014 because of a UN statement in 2016? If you fail to address or acknowledge the reasons, you're as much a part of the problem.
Moscow was trying to pass anti-Nazism resolution on UN GA during previous years.
General Assembly Adopts 68 Resolutions, 7 Decisions as It Takes Action on Reports of Its Third Committee | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases
GA/11475
18 DECEMBER 2013
The other draft resolutions that required recorded votes were: “Combating glorification of Nazism and other practices that contribute to fuelling contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and related intolerance”
There is a natural counter-argument. If you propose a resolution against glorification of Nazism then why you don't have respective law in Russia? So the law was intended to nullify this counter-argument.
 
B

benjaminw1

Guest
#86
Moscow was trying to pass anti-Nazism resolution on UN GA during previous years.
General Assembly Adopts 68 Resolutions, 7 Decisions as It Takes Action on Reports of Its Third Committee | Meetings Coverage and Press Releases


There is a natural counter-argument. If you propose a resolution against glorification of Nazism then why you don't have respective law in Russia? So the law was intended to nullify this counter-argument.
Why is there not a resolution against the glorification of Communism in Russia, a much more foul and murdererous ideology that Nazism ever was?
 
#87
Why is there not a resolution against the glorification of Communism in Russia, a much more foul and murdererous ideology that Nazism ever was?
IMHO Nazism, Nazist ideology is absolute evil and its glorification in any form is unaceptable, insulting.
As for Communist, Marxist ideology (that I personally don't support) then it is not forbidden in most of European countries (with notable exception - Ukraine, where communist party is forbidden). Btw, Marxism is an official ideology of the Labour party in the UK.
So first of all ask your MP to pass a law to forbid Marxist (Communist) ideology in the UK, to forbid florification of Marxism in Great Britain and only then propose to do it in Russia.
 
B

benjaminw1

Guest
#89
IMHO Nazism, Nazist ideology is absolute evil and its glorification in any form is unaceptable, insulting.
As for Communist, Marxist ideology (that I personally don't support) then it is not forbidden in most of European countries (with notable exception - Ukraine, where communist party is forbidden). Btw, Marxism is an official ideology of the Labour party in the UK.
So first of all ask your MP to pass a law to forbid Marxist (Communist) ideology in the UK, to forbid florification of Marxism in Great Britain and only then propose to do it in Russia.
Don't tell me what to do Checkist!
 
#90
Lest You Forget:

To An Alt-Right Troll On Remembrance Sunday


A war was fought, a world was fraught

Between ideas. Unseen dried tears

By millions shed, for dead that bled,

With lives cut short, your freedom bought.

A tidy sum. One idea won...


That you are free to choose to be

The crassest kind of fascist mind,

Swastika-tatoo'd, with toxic attitude;

It's what we see as Liberty,

Which you abuse. Yet, you can choose.


12.11.2017
Poetry eh? Really getting the big guns out then.

Nothing like an artfully crafted iambic pentameter to really put the collywobbles up your average Nazi.
 
#91
There's ones going back to '88 and '85 on a cursory search. Russia didn't change their legislation then or even straight after the wall came down or any time between the end of the Nazi Party and 2014.

Your point is:
Why the law against Nazi propaganda was passed in Russia in 2014?
It's politics.
The article in RT states the concerns in the Duma. Only you are trying to say it's got nothing to do with the rise in Nazi'ism in Russia
There is a natural counter-argument. If you propose a resolution against glorification of Nazism then why you don't have respective law in Russia? So the law was intended to nullify this counter-argument.
You're clearly trying to avoid the main thrust and obvious answer. Your denials and obfuscation and 'whataboutery' confirm it. Why you can't admit there's been a rise in Nazism in Russia escapes me. Maybe it's just all part of the plan to paint Ukraine as Nazi's and once again Russia as the victims.
 
#92
My comment are in bold
Putin's agitprop is not MY in any sense.
As a private person I express my own views.
When they (who are 'they'?) continue to align with your agitprop sites (personally I haven't any agitprop sites), it remains your agitprop (It's Putin's, Russian agitprop. Not my one). When they differ (only on items re Putin), you may have a point.
Your views
Russian agitprop sites. Are you not Russian?
Russian agitprop sites. Are you not Russian?
- as above, when they (your views) differ from Putin's you may have a point.
Is Mail your newspaper?
Mine? No.
Do you bear any responsibility for its content? No?
When I consistently agree with what the Mail says and push some lies, obfuscation, disinformation and 'whataboutery' to support what the Mail says consistently, you may have a point.
Equally I don't bear any responsibility for Putin's agitprop outlets.
Well, read RT, watch it if you like. But they are not my in any sense.
I do not consistently agree with the Mail. I do not push what is on their agenda. I do not use lies, obfuscate, denial and 'whataboutery' to push the Mail's agenda. You do on Putin's agitprop.

Accordingly, until you consistently push against something that the agitprop line disseminates other than your alleged dislike of Putin, I'll call it 'your' agitprop, much like it is 'your' troll factory. There are reams of evidence on this such as you pushing the war on Turkey and now not a mention. Reiteration of 'Nazi's' in W Ukraine (no mention of any in E Ukraine), compliance with the illegal occupation and annexation of Crimea, blatant lies and disinformation about MH17 etc etc.
 
#93
(...) Canada votes against UN motion on glorifying Nazism

@terminal why do you think Canada appeared in a position of Washington's puppet?
It had nothing to do with Washington. It had to do with the strength of the Ukrainian nationalist lobby in Canada, plus the desire of Canada to not to have to answer questions about why so many Nazi war criminals were given shelter in Canada after WWII. Cold War diplomacy also played a large role in this until the collapse of communism.

A number of Ukrainian Nazi war criminals in Canada were on Israel's most wanted list but Canada would not either extradite them to anyone nor prosecute them ourselves. Here's the example of the infamous "Nazi bee keeper of Quebec", who was number 4 on the Simon Wiesenthal Centre's 10 most wanted list. Despite much pressure from Israel and various Jewish groups, he has since died peacefully in his sleep without ever answering for his alleged crimes. Quebec beekeeper accused of Nazi war crimes Very few Nazi war criminals of any sort in Canada were ever deported to face justice elsewhere.

Here''s some more background reading:
Matas: A few pertinent facts about Nazi war criminals in Canada
Canada a haven for Nazi war criminals
Nazi war criminals in Canada

Of course a government can't simply admit the above, so excuses had to be found to vote against the UN resolution. And also of course, the UN resolution was a cynical ploy by Russia to find a stick to beat Ukrainian and Baltic State (who have plenty of Nazi skeletons in their own closet) nationalists with. Various third world countries also relished pointing out the hypocrisy of western countries who wanted to sweep inconvenient history under the carpet while pontificating about human rights when it suites them.

Here's a good article by the Jerusalem Post which explains the background of why the Nazi past of so many east European countries is a diplomatic minefield. It's well worth reading.
Russian-Ukrainian spat over anti-Semitism reaches the UN
Here's what "Dr. Efraim Zuroff, a Nazi-hunter who heads the Simon Wiesenthal Center’s Jerusalem office" had to say about it if you can't be bothered to read the whole story.
“There is a very strong tendency in post-Communist Europe to try to rewrite the narrative of World War II and the Holocaust and to try and minimize crimes by local Nazi collaborators, to equate Communist crimes and suffering of Communist victims with Nazi crimes during the Shoah and to glorify local heroes who fought against the Communists even though some of them were actively involved in collaboration with the Nazis and mass murder of Jews during the Holocaust,” he said.

As a consequence of this, former Soviet countries, especially in the Baltics, have engaged in a systematic campaign to revise history, with Ukraine being “the worst of them,” Zuroff told the Post.
I can't say I personally have much sympathy for anyone in Canada or abroad who wants to sweep that record under the carpet for votes or diplomatic advantage, or who acts as a Nazi apologist by waving his arms at the crimes committed by Stalin in an attempt to obfuscate the past crimes committed by the heroes of our current "friends".

The Germans were big boys who owned up to what Hitler did. It's time for the other countries of central and eastern Europe to do the same for their own little Hitlers.
 
#94
There's ones going back to '88 and '85 on a cursory search. Russia didn't change their legislation then or even straight after the wall came down or any time between the end of the Nazi Party and 2014.

Your point is:

The article in RT states the concerns in the Duma. Only you are trying to say it's got nothing to do with the rise in Nazi'ism in Russia

You're clearly trying to avoid the main thrust and obvious answer. Your denials and obfuscation and 'whataboutery' confirm it. Why you can't admit there's been a rise in Nazism in Russia escapes me. Maybe it's just all part of the plan to paint Ukraine as Nazi's and once again Russia as the victims.
I merely express my point of view. I live in Moscow and (due to the nature of my work - power energetics) visited a lot of regions in Russia. There are no visible marks of so called 'Nazis' in Russia. There is no anything that could be seen as public support for such ideas. Yes, some extremist group could behave in a manner that one may regard similar to Nazist but really it is not so big problem.
So we have agree to disagree.
 
#95
I merely express my point of view. I live in Moscow and (due to the nature of my work - power energetics) visited a lot of regions in Russia. There are no visible marks of so called 'Nazis' in Russia. There is no anything that could be seen as public support for such ideas. Yes, some extremist group could behave in a manner that one may regard similar to Nazist but really it is not so big problem.
I travel across the UK weekly. I don't see anything which makes me think we have Nazi's in the UK. However, I'm not blind and know there are those in the UK which support the Nazi ideology and there are neo Nazi groups.

The point is, the Duma according to the RT article felt there was enough reason to have the legislation based on the comments in the articles. The person who raised that party from others etc. is now the Deputy Speaker for the Duma.
So we have agree to disagree.
As ever.
 
#96
Your views
Russian agitprop sites. Are you not Russian?
Russian agitprop sites. Are you not Russian?
- as above, when they (your views) differ from Putin's you may have a point.

Mine? No.

When I consistently agree with what the Mail says and push some lies, obfuscation, disinformation and 'whataboutery' to support what the Mail says consistently, you may have a point.

I do not consistently agree with the Mail. I do not push what is on their agenda. I do not use lies, obfuscate, denial and 'whataboutery' to push the Mail's agenda. You do on Putin's agitprop.

Accordingly, until you consistently push against something that the agitprop line disseminates other than your alleged dislike of Putin, I'll call it 'your' agitprop, much like it is 'your' troll factory. There are reams of evidence on this such as you pushing the war on Turkey and now not a mention. Reiteration of 'Nazi's' in W Ukraine (no mention of any in E Ukraine), compliance with the illegal occupation and annexation of Crimea, blatant lies and disinformation about MH17 etc etc.
I'm unaware about any troll factories.
Putin's agitprop is not 'my' in any sense.
I may agree or disagree with point made in Mail, BBC, RT, CNN.
However, personally I'm not affiliated with any mass media, political party or anything similar.
Yes, I'm Russian and what? Is it so big sin?
You have right to have own views and write about your allegations, suppositions and ideas.
I have exactly the same right.
Any issue should be regarded separately and facts should be separated from allegations.
If allegation contradicts to another allegation then we can not speak about 'lies'
If some new facts contradict to previously made allegation then also we can not speak about 'lies' but about wrong allegations.
If some allegations that contradict to well known (to a person who makes them) facts then we can speak about lies.
If somebody believes that allegations are proven true 'beyond reasonable doubt' then still they are allegations.
If you have another definition of 'lies' then it would be very kind of you to write about it directly.
 
#97
I'm unaware about any troll factories.
Your google-fu is weak. Just use English Google and type in 'Russian troll factories' There are plenty of hits.
Putin's agitprop is not 'my' in any sense.
You push the same agenda, consistently
I may agree or disagree with point made in Mail, BBC, RT, CNN.
When you consistently disagree with Putin's agitprop (other than on Putin), you may have a point
However, personally I'm not affiliated with any mass media, political party or anything similar.
We've discussed your DIDs previously
Yes, I'm Russian and what? Is it so big sin?
I never said it was
You have right to have own views and write about your allegations, suppositions and ideas.
I do. As do you. I doubt this site would exist in Russia though
I have exactly the same right.
As above
Any issue should be regarded separately and facts should be separated from allegations.
So change 'West Ukraine' to 'Ukraine' and put a date on it
If allegation contradicts to another allegation then we can not speak about 'lies'
That depends on the strength of the allegation and counter allegation.
If some new facts contradict to previously made allegation then also we can not speak about 'lies' but about wrong allegations.
If there's an allegation you can use the word 'alleged'
If some allegations that contradict to well known (to a person who makes them) facts then we can speak about lies.
As above about strength of allegations and counter allegations.
If somebody believes that allegations are proven true 'beyond reasonable doubt' then still they are allegations.
Not in a Court of Law
If you have another definition of 'lies' then it would be very kind of you to write about it directly.
This'll do: the definition of lie
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
 
#98
So if one makes an allegation, expresses opinion, suggest something that doesn't contradict to known to him facts then they are not lies. Though they could be sincere mistakes.
Do you agree with it?
Let's regard an example.
His excellency @MARSHALVAUBAN wrote
Venezuela :-
1) Assassinations of the opposition including their families.
2) Extrajudical arbitary executions for protest
3) Uses torture on protesters
4) People just dissappearing in the night.
5) Arbitrary arrest and indefinite detention without trial.
It excludes and harrasses foreign observers and journalists.
6) Forced labour.
7) Withdrawn from the Human Rights Court of the Americas.
8.) Delibrately places political prisoners in jails with the worst and most violent criminals.
Are they lies? No, because he sincerely believed it. His excellency was unable to back his points by facts. So they are just baseless allegations and not lies at all.
 
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#99
Third time lucky? Germany gears up...

Its not just planning.

the Bundeswehr is expanding its tank fleet by over 40 percent, from 225 to 320 main battle tanks.

Of course the real exam question is : 2 fronts, sequential or concurrent?
The Bunsewehr may be expanding, but it is from a low base after a quarter of a century of cutbacks.

The proportion of Germen GDP spent on defence is a bit over 1% (IIRC).
 
So if one makes an allegation, expresses opinion, suggest something that doesn't contradict to known to him facts then they are not lies. Though they could be sincere mistakes.
Do you agree with it?
It depends on context obviously. For arguments sake, if you'd said 'Ukraine' rather than 'West Ukraine' I couldn't quibble. It was Ukraine. If you'd said 'allegedly West Ukraine' I'd have asked for you to support your allegation. You didn't even do that, you just stated 'West Ukraine'.

You could for arguments sake state that all Yorkshire people are tight fisted. It's a well known trait and doesn't apply to all Yorkshiremen, but is well known enough in the UK for it to be accepted in a general context. That is a statement made to the best of your ability and knowledge and can be supported by numerous sources such as the old joke "What's the difference between a Yorkshireman and a Scot? A Yorkshireman is a Scot with all of the generosity squeezed out of them" This is 'funny' in the context that the Scots are (allegedly) also known to be frugal. It isn't true and having been by the grace of God born in Yorkshire I am able to say this. However, it can be said but with exclamations coming from all quarters, particularly from Yorkshiremen and then other counties.
 
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