The new Land Rover Defender is go!

Sticking Your head out
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Thats not gonna work - even desperate Dans gonna get shaved to close there
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No still asking for a face full of dirt I suppose could go left but a bit further in and it rolls you -

The 90 after me did fortunately it fell against the bank and momentum took it past the point and he rolled back onto all 4

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Note the use of a guide to set up your approach safely to straddle the rut

The more observant will have noticed the 3 are in reverse order

The long lost video footage demonstrates axle articulation beautifully or in the case of my series lack of as at no point do i have more than 3 wheels in contact.

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Series 3 limps slowly behind pit racer

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Aye head out watch the offside wheel - **** knows what the near sides doing it


In defence of that their 4xshed - its arrival was met with derision as it was battered bruised and mismatched, At close of play it was much admired and impressed many that it went up or through everything a testament to its ability not mine.
The only complaint it attracted was on the main road - I couldnt keep up especially on twisty hills - where poor acceleration and serious brake fade slowed me down - but that was good natured and accepted (they were not so tolerant of the Disco driver who even held me up)

Edited for some monged spelling
 
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"Action Jackson" near Castle Kennedy in 96.... land rovers are not supposed to do that...
 
1. It’s not a standard CRV. It’s had a suspension lift bigger wheels. What else has been done?
Landy handling is shit on road - we all know this

But the number of people that buy something else for the better handling then raise it astounds me .

I bought a Defender - it had crap handling and good cross country as built
You didn't like that so you bought something else then modified it to give crap handling and good cross country
I always feel im missing apiece of the puzzle.

2. It’s not being driven off road. It’s being driven on a gravel road. There’s a difference.
I cant comment on the CRV but the old Xtrail wasn't true 4x4 it increased drive to the rears (iirc) as required - but and its a big but - there was a protection built in to disengage if there was a risk of damaging the system -
That to me says gravel tracks dirt roads, snow ice** etc are ok but actual off road youre 2 wheel drive.

**Although it does seem 90% of 4x4 drivers do not understand that can pull off drive and to an extent steer better on ice does not in any way equal better at stopping on it
 
Landy handling is shit on road - we all know this

But the number of people that buy something else for the better handling then raise it astounds me .

I bought a Defender - it had crap handling and good cross country as built
You didn't like that so you bought something else then modified it to give crap handling and good cross country
I always feel im missing apiece of the puzzle.



I cant comment on the CRV but the old Xtrail wasn't true 4x4 it increased drive to the rears (iirc) as required - but and its a big but - there was a protection built in to disengage if there was a risk of damaging the system -
That to me says gravel tracks dirt roads, snow ice** etc are ok but actual off road youre 2 wheel drive.

**Although it does seem 90% of 4x4 drivers do not understand that can pull off drive and to an extent steer better on ice does not in any way equal better at stopping on it
The CRV is similar; spends most of its life in FWD and engages the rear diff when it senses it needs to. TBH I’ve never seen one off-road; can’t imagine it any more useful than tits on a fish.
 
The CRV is similar; spends most of its life in FWD and engages the rear diff when it senses it needs to. TBH I’ve never seen one off-road; can’t imagine it any more useful than tits on a fish.
Theres a lot that have that set up - my concern is the "oh torques getting up i will disengage" - Now on a road car that sensible - but it indicates its not robust enough to be playing off road. Which to be fair Nissan state - but I wonder how many do pay heed.

I recall about 15 -20 years ago a legal action because a young girl not long driving and friends were wiped out in a Vitara- too fast into a corner and went rubber side up, Mother then sued Suzuki because it was unsafe as the high C of G meant it rolled easier than a car.

Page 1 Line 1 Vitara owners manual - (and I paraphrase) - its a 4x4 designed to go off road - drive it like an Elise and you will die.

The old vitara was pretty good ( once you removed the hair dresser bling) - just be careful following landies** you would occasionally scrape the belly on edges or bottom out in ruts that they sail through


**You can probably add Cruisers Patrols and Hi Luxs to that list
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
Nothing to do with the thing being properly, over 2m, wide?

Driving off road? I certainly do, but I find sticking my head out the window gives me all the view I need when stuff gets tight.
The New Defender is 2.008m wide, Discovery 4 (against which it is being compared by most) is 2.190m wide.
There is a byway in Wales called (ironically) Happy Valley which has a cart track cut over a metre deep into the stone, it was not built for modern, or probably any, motorised vehicles yet with the aid of a spotter, a Discovery 3 or 4 can be driven through it. The cameras on the New Defender mean the spotter can ride in comfort rather than being out in traditional Welsh weather. Now thats progress.

ETA - this is what can happen if you are not observing where the wheels are...
 
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OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
Wider than o would have liked - but unavoidable - its going to be best part of a foot wider than the old just for the SIPS


Sure ive been up there (happy valley) in a series
The width helps with vehicle stability so increases fast road 'manners', doesn't help with attracting bramble rash though!
I think I recognise the location of your earlier photos, is it near a reservoir?
 

skeetstar

Old-Salt
Wider than o would have liked - but unavoidable - its going to be best part of a foot wider than the old just for the SIPS


Sure ive been up there (happy valley) in a series
Done happy valley loads of times in a group, mine was the youngest LR at 50 years old, the oldest vehicle was nearly 60 years old. No winches, stock vehicles *with bigger tyres is all. Carried a few ropes, shovels, saws, fuel and oil. Nothing that couldnt be overcome with a bit of thought and ingenuity.
* tell a lie, we had a 109 with a 200tdi in it. And one had an old style capstan winch.
Off roading is far more satisfying when it's just you, the engine and the tyres.. though an awful lot less comfortable than in a disco or whatever.
 
The width helps with vehicle stability so increases fast road 'manners', doesn't help with attracting bramble rash though!
I think I recognise the location of your earlier photos, is it near a reservoir?
Dont recall - but its bow closed the walkers groups moaned about 2ft deep landrover tracks etc and the local council** leapt on the opportunity to ban them

** In Cammbridge an individual involved in DEFRA process viz byways /Boats/ RUPPS etc had to resign from Glass as its a conflict of interest - his compatriot in the Rambling association was under no such obligation now you know how the review was so one sided and pretty much everything became footpaths - they even shafted horses and cyclists
 
Theres a lot that have that set up - my concern is the "oh torques getting up i will disengage" - Now on a road car that sensible - but it indicates its not robust enough to be playing off road. Which to be fair Nissan state - but I wonder how many do pay heed.

I recall about 15 -20 years ago a legal action because a young girl not long driving and friends were wiped out in a Vitara- too fast into a corner and went rubber side up, Mother then sued Suzuki because it was unsafe as the high C of G meant it rolled easier than a car.

Page 1 Line 1 Vitara owners manual - (and I paraphrase) - its a 4x4 designed to go off road - drive it like an Elise and you will die.

The old vitara was pretty good ( once you removed the hair dresser bling) - just be careful following landies** you would occasionally scrape the belly on edges or bottom out in ruts that they sail through


**You can probably add Cruisers Patrols and Hi Luxs to that list
It depends on the type of system used to move the drive around. Old school 4x4s have a conventional differential which can be locked mechanically. Others use a Torsen differential which locks when it senses an applied torque. Both of these make a locked mechanical connection.

Others used vicious couplings in which there was no mechanical connection. The CRV uses a twin plate clutch activated by an electric motor.

As for the Vitara, loved mine in Cyprus in the late 90s. Went everywhere and anywhere, never with the roof in!
 
I recall about 15 -20 years ago a legal action because a young girl not long driving and friends were wiped out in a Vitara- too fast into a corner and went rubber side up, Mother then sued Suzuki because it was unsafe as the high C of G meant it rolled easier than a car.

Page 1 Line 1 Vitara owners manual - (and I paraphrase) - its a 4x4 designed to go off road - drive it like an Elise and you will die.
My Grandparents had one in the 80's, when I was a nipper - even then they referred to it as a 'tip-up Suzuki'.
 
For reference I'll post this on the New Defender thread, and also the Grenadier thread.

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Originally published by: Matt Saunders, Road test editor, AUTOCAR magazine, on xx xxx xxxx.

Toyota Land Cruiser review. From £32,6997.

Toyota’s rough-and-ready, old-school, unstoppable 4x4 gets a bit less rough-and-ready. Likeably simple and functional, and worth considering if you need a genuine dual-purpose SUV.

We first sampled the updated 2018 Toyota Land Cruiser abroad, but our chance to take a view on it here in Britain just so happened to come in the week in which the cruellest winter weather for several years blew in.
Thus one ‘beast from the east’ met another (the car we know as the Land Cruiser, known as the Colorado previously and the Prado elsewhere in the world, is built primarily in Japan). And one made pretty short work of the other. You can probably guess which conquered which.

The Land Cruiser has a reputation for wilderness-taming robustness, unstoppable reliability and 4x4 capability that exceeds even that of Land Rover and Jeep. It’s not bought to survive the sand dunes of the Middle East, the prairies of South America or the Australian outback because it’s been designed ‘reductively’ or it’s available on a killer PCP deal. It's popular because it just keeps on going, come what may.
What has Toyota added to the 2018 Land Cruiser?

This generation of the Land Cruiser has been going since 2009, but has just had the latest in a series of small redesigns inside and out. I won’t call it a styling update; that’d be an insult. The Land Cruiser’s headlights and grille have been raised to better keep them out of the way of anything that might block or damage them. It has squarer front wings that make judging its extremities easier and a reprofiled bonnet so that you can better see large, pointy objects that are about to disappear under its wheels. Its front bumper has been reshaped, too, in order to make for the best possible approach angle. At no point, I'd like to think, have this car’s designers given much more than a passing thought to how ‘nice’ it looks.

As we reported last time around, the Land Cruiser’s body-on-frame construction survives (although it's been stiffened), and while the engine has been revised with a new turbo and a few other changes, it’s still a 2.8-litre four-cylinder diesel with an unspectacular-sounding 174bhp.

The car’s suspended by double wishbones up front and by a rigid axle secured by four links on each side at the rear. As standard, it comes with fixed-height steel coil springs, but top-of-the-line Invincible cars get adaptive dampers, an interlinked automatic roll stabilisation system and self-levelling air suspension for the rear wheels.

In terms of four-wheel drive hardware, there’s plenty going on, as you might imagine: a low-range transfer case, a torque sensing and lockable centre differential, a new lockable rear differential (fitted to top-line cars as standard) and a new Terrain Response-style off-road traction and stability control system called Multi Terrain Select.

Our test car came on Dunlop Grandtrek SUV tyres and had 215mm of ground clearance, 700mm of wading depth and a 31deg approach angle. So, all-corner air suspension or not, you can see why little might stop it.
What's the Toyota Land Cruiser like inside?

While attempts have been made to freshen and update this car’s interior to make it more refined and luxurious, and generally keep it broadly competitive with other SUVs you might spend £50,000 on, they’re of qualified success. And limited in scope, too – for good reasons. These are the kinds of revisions you expect of a car maker that knows its subject’s market positioning is about as secure as it could be and doesn’t think much needs fixing.

And so while Toyota’s interior updates have added a reshaped dashboard and a new instrument panel to the Invincible spec model, as well as a new centre console covered in shiny knobs and buttons for the various off-road modes, they haven’t exactly turned the Land Cruiser into a rival for an Audi Q7. Think of this car, instead, as a car of Land Rover Defender-level mud-plugging abilities, with the sort of interior comfort, quality and habitability you’d very happily accept and embrace in your everyday driver. The car’s heated and ventilated leather seats are soft and snug, and give you a great view out. Its fittings look and feel solid, and fairly expensive – but most of all, they’re plainly ready to last.

Further rearwards, the car now has sliding second-row seats and a third row that collapses properly into the boot floor rather than fold away upwards to take up boot space. It’s not a particularly roomy seven-seater by large SUV standards, but then it’s not a desperately large SUV.

Only the base-level, three-door Utility model has the choice between a manual or automatic gearbox; the rest of the range is exclusively served by the automatic. The Active model gains an 8.0in Touchscreen, DAB radio, dual-zone air conditioning, reversing camera and rear parking sensors. Power-adjustable seats, front parking sensors, adaptive cruise control and collision detection systems are added with the Icon model. The 5-mode drive select system, adaptive suspension and JBL sound system are reserved for the top-spec Invincible.
Driving the Toyota Land Cruiser

On the road, it’s certainly a smoother and more refined SUV than it used to be. Toyota’s efforts at putting manners on the car’s suspension and creating a calmer, less commercial-feeling ride quality consisted of fitting bigger dampers front and rear, reinforced suspension links and new bushings, as well as delivering longer-stroke wheel travel at the rear in particular. They have been successful. The Land Cruiser now feels fairly supple at low speeds and on the motorway, and while its body takes a long time to settle when the road surface is changing topography, it only moves around in a slow, gentle, low-amplitude, barely noticable sort of a way.

The car’s handling and body control remain of the sort you'd expect of a traditional SUV, rather than what you might of a 21st-century, 21in-wheeled, lowish-rise luxury sports SUV. You probably get twice as much body roll around a typical corner as you would in a road-biased alternative and perhaps two-thirds as much lateral grip – albeit delivered with plenty of stability, through fairly slow-geared, hydraulically assisted steering, and backed up by a decent electronic stability control system. But, of course, you are getting that in a genuine dual-purpose vehicle in which an unplanned excursion into a muddy field wouldn’t be touching the sides of what it’s actually designed to do. You don't find many new cars for which a designer or engineer might celebrate a raised centre of gravity; in this one, if such a change kept any major mechanicals further from harm as a result of grounding or offroading damage, you get the feeling they just might.

The Land Cruiser's on-road performance level is relatively low but, again, that's by the standards of cars whose engines probably couldn’t survive 10 days in the Atacama – running on ‘diesel’ that’s at least 40% alpaca sweat, and breathing more sand and dust than air – without going wrong.

So sure, on the road the Land Cruiser does feel slow; but it doesn’t feel like a failing. However, when people describe this as Toyota’s answer to the Range Rover, they are not only confusing their Land Cruisers (there’s a bigger one, formerly known to Brits as the Amazon, which is no longer sold here) but should perhaps be reminded that the last time a diesel Range Rover had this little power was the thick end of 20 years ago. The luxury 4x4 game’s moved on a bit since.

Not that a Land Cruiser driver would mind being reminded of that much, given how ruggedly invulnerable you feel at the wheel of this car. Credit to Toyota, also, for quietening down the engine considerably and better-sealing its interior from wind noise in this revised Land Cruiser. The engine retains a crochetty four-cylinder diesel growl, but it’s now hardly any noisier than plenty of other four-cylinder diesel SUVs are.
How does the Toyota Land Cruiser fare against other seven-seat SUVs?

This is a functional car – albeit a perfectly comfortable and pleasant one. If mounting the kerb at school kicking out time is the closest you get to off-roading, though, your needs would definitely be better served by a more typical modern SUV that’ll have better fuel economy and be easier to usher around the office car park.

That said, the Land Cruiser is certainly a likeable enough car to persuade you to develop a need for it. And if you really like the idea of owning one, Toyota has expanded the Land Cruiser model range to include a new entry-level 'Utility' trim level that, I’d wager, makes the car more affordable than you’d think.
Can’t justify a fully-loaded seven-seater? Then how about a three-door manual, on steel wheels, for less than £33,000? That’s the price of a mid-range BMW X1. And, apart from anything else, doesn’t it sound like the perfect one-fingered salute to everything that’s objectionable about the SUV-obsessed modern car market?

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I am still looking for the AUTOCAR Long-Term Review of the "three-door manual, on steel wheels, for less than £33,000?", which Matt Prior admits he became quite fond of, and (I think) summarised as "honest". Sentiments that will be appreciated by many viewing and posting on these two threads.
 
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Found it . . . . ;) .

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Originally published by: Matt Prior, AUTOCAR, magazine, on 11 October 2019.

Life with a Toyota Land Cruiser: Month 12

You really get under a car’s skin after a 38,000-mile year. So what’s the verdict? - 25th September 2019.


I know there’s a new Land Rover Defender, and very nice it is too (or isn’t, depending on your outlook), but spare a thought for the forgotten 4x4, won’t you?

The Toyota Land Cruiser 3dr does what a new Defender 90 will do – perhaps more, perhaps less – and, while it’s at it, costs a lot less money and looks a lot more like Wile E Coyote’s head. Yet nobody seems to care about it like they do the Defender. I do. I’ve been running a Land Cruiser since this time last year.

This grey one, in very base Utility specification, at £33,995 plus only metallic paint, arrived from Toyota with just over 150 miles on the clock and has just returned to its maker (sob, sniff, etc) 38,000 miles later. All but 2000 of those have been added by me. I’ve driven more miles in this Land Cruiser than I have in probably any other car, ever; maybe excepting my own Land Rover Defender, which I’ve owned for seven years.

One of the reasons is simple: I’ve had a lot of places to go. But the other reason is that the Land Cruiser has slipped into my life so completely painlessly that, even for a car with big intentions and capabilities when it comes to off-roading, it’s actually a very straightforward family/ commuter car.

Let’s cover the everyday stuff first, then. The Toyota has five seats, good head and leg room in all, and the rear seat backs can be reclined. You can fit a good amount of luggage behind them in position – 380 litres – but they split and tumble forward to leave a decent cargo area, albeit with a high load height because of the offroad credentials and with a rear door that opens sideways, not upwards, because the rear door can be a spare wheel carrier. The rear window hinges up separately.

Road refinement and comfort – not something you’d always associate with a rufty-tufty separate-chassis 4x4 – is good. A colleague described the way the Land Cruiser rides on a motorway as lolling like the bottom jaw of a chewing cow. Slight exaggeration, but I know what he means: the Land Cruiser is a car of slow, steady movements, a soft ride and big cornering lean.

It is not a car you drive quickly on back roads, then, although with leggy gearing in the six-speed manual gearbox and good high-speed stability, plus low road noise levels and comfortable seats, I’ve found it a great long-distance cruiser.

At a cruise, you can return an mpg figure in the high 30s if you drive very slowly but a typical overall return is about 33mpg, giving the Land Cruiser a range of easily 550 miles (more if you’re brave).

It comes without a raft of entertainment, telecoms, comfort equipment or driver aids – just cruise control, manual air conditioning and Bluetooth, really, but that’s enough for me. It doesn’t bong incessantly and I don’t have to turn anything off when I climb into it.

It’s also brilliant off road. Obviously. We’ve done 4x4 videos with it where it has performed superbly and recently our sibling magazine What Car? conducted an off-road ‘mega-test’ that the Land Cruiser won. It gets that separate chassis, great departure and break-over angles, low-range transfer box and locking centre differential and the 2.8-litre diesel has bags of torque – 310lb ft from 1400rpm. M’colleagues found a Mercedes G-Class and Jeep Wrangler, which have a greater number of locking differentials, crossed some terrain more easily, but they’re both rather more expensive than the Toyota.

The car, as you’d hope and expect, has been faultless, although its straightforward nature extends even to servicing, which it wants every 10,000 miles rather than having a variable schedule.

Toyota offers fixed-price servicing – £250 every 10,000 miles, £395 every 20,000, in the Land Cruiser’s case. The only issue with this is that, for diesels, the price includes £12 for AdBlue exhaust treatment, regardless of whether or not your car needs topping up. Given the Land Cruiser seems to want 10 litres every 5000 miles and the containers hold 10 litres, you can plan so it needs it. The advantage is that it doesn’t matter which dealer you visit because you know how much the service will cost. At least, that’s the idea.

I visited Inchcape Toyota Oxford, but although the work they carried out was fine, I can’t recommend you do the same. Partly because it shouldn’t have been beholden on me to inform the service manager AdBlue was included in the price when he said he’d “always” charged extra for it. But mostly because, once told, he was disinclined to find out how many customers he’d overcharged to reimburse them. I doubt there’ll be many, but that’s hardly the point. Inchcape say that if affected customers contact them, they’ll refund them.

The car, at least, was harder to fault. Over nearly 40,000 miles, it showed no visible sign of wear and no consumables expired. It was on the same brakes and everything else it arrived with, with a good 5mm of tread left on the tyres. I’d have probably replaced the fronts, and the windscreen wiper blades, before the winter had it stuck around. But it hasn’t, which is a shame.

There are more glamorous alternatives to the Land Cruiser, but if you want a truly rugged, versatile 4x4 that is as straightforward and dependable as turning on a tap, you know where to turn.

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Second Opinion

When I saw Matt was running a three-door Utility-spec ’Cruiser, I thought he’d gone mad. However, its comfortable motorway ride and satisfying manual ’box won me over. I still think white bodywork and ‘UN’ stickers on the doors would have complemented the steelies to a tee, though.

Alan Taylor Jones
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RE-DSO

Old-Salt
That’s good. The press release refers to them both being available as 2 or 3 seats; I didn’t delve into the build app. Can’t see how they can put seats in the back of a 90 and still be a commercial vehicle though; there won’t be much load space!

I can really see how a 2+3 110 would work for us. We’ve steered clear of a twin cab for security reasons; this would be perfect for my OH who is a visiting vet.
Bob

My understanding is 1 row of seats, so driver and passenger, with option of jump seat in the middle. If you have the jump seat you automaticaly get the reverse camera on the rearview mirrow do to the view being blocked. No second or third row of seats. For it to claim its commercial title it has to be under a set weight. The second and third row of seats would take it over this threshold. Hence the 2 or 3 seat option on the commercial, sorry hardtop variant
 
Bob

My understanding is 1 row of seats, so driver and passenger, with option of jump seat in the middle. If you have the jump seat you automaticaly get the reverse camera on the rearview mirrow do to the view being blocked. No second or third row of seats. For it to claim its commercial title it has to be under a set weight. The second and third row of seats would take it over this threshold. Hence the 2 or 3 seat option on the commercial, sorry hardtop variant
That’s what I thought, but another poster (can’t remember who) went into the configurator on the JLR website and found you could configure two or three rows of seats.

If it has a single row of seats, why retain the rear doors which will be vulnerable to damage from loads etc.
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
That’s what I thought, but another poster (can’t remember who) went into the configurator on the JLR website and found you could configure two or three rows of seats.

If it has a single row of seats, why retain the rear doors which will be vulnerable to damage from loads etc.
I had a Freelander 2 'Commercial' which was basically a standard Freelander with the rear bench seat deleted, a load guard fitted behind the front seats and a load floor fitted in lieu of the rear seats. With regard to the (new) Defender, the 2nd & optional 3rd row seats fold flat in a similar way to Discovery 3 & 4 to give a flat loadspace.
From personal experience, the extra doors into the loadspace are useful - look at Transit Custom, most owners / drivers prefer the side load doors for acessibility and flexibility. The issue of kerb weight has been resolved by integrating the chassis into the body, retaining the strength but reducing the mass, thereby increasing the (seating) flexibility but retaining the load-carrying ability. A more practical reason to retain the rear doors is simply to reduce the panel option count and type approval cost - as we're all aware, car production control was handed over to accountants long ago... :(
 

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