The new Land Rover Defender is go!

"… the fickle bourgeois market that was buying Audis 5 years ago."
Oh for sure fashion will move on leaving JLR high and dry, I'm assuming this is a deliberately short termist strategy but I agree that depending on the ill informed big pointy shoes brigade rather than the steel toes and welly wearers is not a secure long term position.
Anyway, that's the end of LR as a credible player in the utility market, I don't see them coming back for this and, to be fair they appear to have zero jnterest in such people.
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
"… the fickle bourgeois market that was buying Audis 5 years ago."
Oh for sure fashion will move on leaving JLR high and dry, I'm assuming this is a deliberately short termist strategy but I agree that depending on the ill informed big pointy shoes brigade rather than the steel toes and welly wearers is not a secure long term position.
Anyway, that's the end of LR as a credible player in the utility market, I don't see them coming back for this and, to be fair they appear to have zero jnterest in such people.
Ignoring the 'heritage' aspect of it, the old Defender was very labour intensive, low margin and quite a liability - and not a big seller. the platforms the JLR have now can be adapted quickly to changes in buyers needs / habits. The hard and expensive work of platform development has already been done, changing the body panels or interior ahead of what the fickle bourgeois thinks it wants is reasonably easy - and also easy to lead buyers into something to aspire to. JLR & Mercedes in particular still attract lots of 'old money' buyers, look at top of the range vehicles of both marques, they change very slowly so as not to alienate their buyers - people who also influence buying lower down the ladder. I'm not involved in automotive marketing but I am 'exposed' to it more than most, some of it is reactive, some predictive, I think most people would be suprised about how buyers are 'led' to certain decisions.
I think you may be suprised about the reach of Defender over the next three years or so, JLR are playing things quite well behind the scenes, expect to see Defender is some unusual places six to eight months after launch.
 
This reliable reputation you speak of?...... ;)
All LandRovers are designed first & foremost with true off-road ability, the packages they wrap it in sometimes disguise what they're capable of. Some manufacturers (VW for example) can add optional packages to get close to the LR offroad ability , but at a seriously large price premium. BMW bought LR and tried to asset-strip it before selling on to Ford, LR responded by outclassing what BMW had 'stolen', same happened when Ford sold to Tata.
If you needed to go properly off road, would you do it in a mega-bucks Chelsea tractor, with massive, polished rims, or would you do it in a battered Tallywagon with an old school low range gear box and proper tyres?
 

WALT

War Hero
If you needed to go properly off road, would you do it in a mega-bucks Chelsea tractor, with massive, polished rims, or would you do it in a battered Tallywagon with an old school low range gear box and proper tyres?
And therein lies the problem. How many people actually go off road these days? Bugger all.
But it's what the Chelsea tractor brigade aspire to. Trouble is, if Land Rover don't make offroaders, then that aspiratonal aspect is gone.
Can I interst sir in a can of spray on mud?
 
Ignoring the 'heritage' aspect of it, the old Defender was very labour intensive, low margin and quite a liability - and not a big seller. the platforms the JLR have now can be adapted quickly to changes in buyers needs / habits. The hard and expensive work of platform development has already been done, changing the body panels or interior ahead of what the fickle bourgeois thinks it wants is reasonably easy - and also easy to lead buyers into something to aspire to. JLR & Mercedes in particular still attract lots of 'old money' buyers, look at top of the range vehicles of both marques, they change very slowly so as not to alienate their buyers - people who also influence buying lower down the ladder. I'm not involved in automotive marketing but I am 'exposed' to it more than most, some of it is reactive, some predictive, I think most people would be suprised about how buyers are 'led' to certain decisions.
I think you may be suprised about the reach of Defender over the next three years or so, JLR are playing things quite well behind the scenes, expect to see Defender is some unusual places six to eight months after launch.
Yes I get that the economics of it were tricky in the extreme and the importance of platforms. However I look at the underneath and when modern L-Rs are up on the ramp I'm looking at a variation upon a theme of car. Not small truck. And separate chassis plus long travel live axles is the gold standard for off road utilities, they haven't invented anything better* and sooner or later someone is going to shout out that the emperor has no clothes on. I could be wrong.
Yes electronic traction aids are great at making independent suspension get through like live axles, when that shnit works and frankly electronic stuff carks it after about 15 years max. Possibly less, if I were to dunk it in cold water, cover it in mud and then vibrate the hell out if it while exposing it to extremes of heat and cold. (Mines a 200Tdi so - Hah! No electronics to cost me money!)
Yes I get that L-R is playing with it's "brand" and is doing some cool product placement, all I can say is that I reckon sooner or later the public will catch on to form over content. I could be wrong.

*"Nicer" yes, but modern folks seem to be rather confused, if niceness was better soldiers would be issued trainers.
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
If you needed to go properly off road, would you do it in a mega-bucks Chelsea tractor, with massive, polished rims, or would you do it in a battered Tallywagon with an old school low range gear box and proper tyres?
Most larger current LandRovers have a low ratio transfer box, unless you really need low-down torque then this is mostly negated by the current asuto boxes, remember that the low-ration box was originally needed due to manual gearboxes. Lot's of low down torque can be counterproductive as it will induce wheelspin instead of forward movement. I tend to agree with the wheels, some of the 'upgrades' available would present themselves prone to damage, however, go to a LandRover Experience Centre, you'll find all the vehicles are on standard wheels & tyres - and for the most part, the tracks used are not manufactured unlike some other marques. The parts that are manufactured are to make them sustainable and more 'tricky' than the natural environment allows (think sideslopes and water runs). I've also used standard wheels & tyres across North Africa with no loss of capability - there are times when nothing but deep tread tyres will do, take a look at some of the G8 challenge videos.
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
Yes I get that the economics of it were tricky in the extreme and the importance of platforms. However I look at the underneath and when modern L-Rs are up on the ramp I'm looking at a variation upon a theme of car. Not small truck. And separate chassis plus long travel live axles is the gold standard for off road utilities, they haven't invented anything better* and sooner or later someone is going to shout out that the emperor has no clothes on. I could be wrong.
Yes electronic traction aids are great at making independent suspension get through like live axles, when that shnit works and frankly electronic stuff carks it after about 15 years max. Possibly less, if I were to dunk it in cold water, cover it in mud and then vibrate the hell out if it while exposing it to extremes of heat and cold. (Mines a 200Tdi so - Hah! No electronics to cost me money!)
Yes I get that L-R is playing with it's "brand" and is doing some cool product placement, all I can say is that I reckon sooner or later the public will catch on to form over content. I could be wrong.

*"Nicer" yes, but modern folks seem to be rather confused, if niceness was better soldiers would be issued trainers.
OK, fair enough, from my personal experience, beam axles are restrictive in terms of articulation, heavy and give poor ground clearance - unless you start modding things, and we're talking about production vehicles right?
I've had lots of instances where steering rods, dampers, damper mountings, coil springs, leaf springs, prop shafts & drop links on Defender / Discovery 1&2 have been damaged and required field repairs, the worst i've personally experienced on Discovery 3 or 4 was damaged air compressor housing (caused by the driver using it as a jacking point) damaged air supply hose, broken CV joint (NSF outer - i'm sure you can guess why!) and a few blocked air filters - all on standard vehicles.
My own Discovery3 is nearly fourteen years old, had 152,000 miles on it (I bought it new) and has had no 'electronics' issues bar three replacement door locks and a couple of EGR valves despite having being used in Scandanavia, Alpine regions, Africa Europe & UK - obvioulsy a sample of one so statistically irrelevant. I drive lots of JLR and other marques products on a regular basis and tend to agree with Clarkson when I look at the carpark - 'what colour of RangeRover would I buy?'

Point to note: Traction aids are there to regain traction if/when lost, it can do nothing to prevent it's loss in the first place - that's where variable locking transfer box & rear differential come into play with Terrain Response
Driver ability and tyres make the biggest difference in keeping moving.

LandRover are not alone in not being interested in trying to justify their choices to people that will never buy new products, i've seen some of the 'they should have done this or that' or 'that isn't the way they should have...' on the internet, those opinions are not from people that would buy a new car if LR had done it exactly the way they wanted, in the main, they're looking at what they'll be buying in ten or twelve years time, which is not the concern of a vehicle manufacturer today.
 
Surely the whole of LR is now just aimed at chavs with money who want road cars with huge rims and rock hard lowered suspension, leather seats etc.

They seem to have lost their core target demographic a bit and have focussed on the fickle bourgeois market that was buying Audis 5 years ago. Not the safest move for them I fear, since the have lost their reputation for reliable and functional off road vehicles and have put their hat in the ring with the other 9000 manufacturers who make soft-roaders.
Have seen a fair few lowered and pimped Defenders around here.......I'm just confused , why would you do that ?
I have ridden been passenger/ballast several times in Bowler products that seem to handle pretty well on tarmac despite having suspension travel a Defender can only dream of ....
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
Have seen a fair few lowered and pimped Defenders around here.......I'm just confused , why would you do that ?
Couldn't agree more!
 

WALT

War Hero
LandRover are not alone in not being interested in trying to justify their choices to people that will never buy new products, i've seen some of the 'they should have done this or that' or 'that isn't the way they should have...' on the internet, those opinions are not from people that would buy a new car if LR had done it exactly the way they wanted, in the main, they're looking at what they'll be buying in ten or twelve years time, which is not the concern of a vehicle manufacturer today.
Whilst that is true and certainly seems to be the case with modern cars, the traditional resale value of a Land Rover was not to be sniffed at. The high prices could be justified as one still had an asset after a few years use. Who wants to spend 40 grand on something that is worth 50 pence in two years time?
The Freelander is a case in point. The resale value is virtually scrap price. No one wants them second hand.
I'm definitely in your second hand market. I'm a farm mechanic. I want a vehicle I can dent, pull shit and get muddy without having a coronary. I also want a vehicle I can repair (and modify) myself. However that's a problem with every modern car. Which is why I feel sad at the direction of Land Rover. But I can see why they are doing it. We're just old buggers left aside by modern society and we aren't happy about it.
However, I'll be doing my best to keep a few oldies on the road for as long as possible.
 
Whilst that is true and certainly seems to be the case with modern cars, the traditional resale value of a Land Rover was not to be sniffed at. The high prices could be justified as one still had an asset after a few years use. Who wants to spend 40 grand on something that is worth 50 pence in two years time?
The Freelander is a case in point. The resale value is virtually scrap price. No one wants them second hand.
I'm definitely in your second hand market. I'm a farm mechanic. I want a vehicle I can dent, pull shit and get muddy without having a coronary. I also want a vehicle I can repair (and modify) myself. However that's a problem with every modern car. Which is why I feel sad at the direction of Land Rover. But I can see why they are doing it. We're just old buggers left aside by modern society and we aren't happy about it.
However, I'll be doing my best to keep a few oldies on the road for as long as possible.
What JLR has done with the Defender seems barking.

Evoque, Freelander etc - Silly little road cars driven on the school run - crowded market, but fine, some people will buy those.

New Discovery - Gone from farmers car to Chelsea tractor - annoying, and self limited to people with serious cash to burn.

New Defender - Gone from working car to Chelsea tractor - Why?! The Disco already had this covered. LR now don't have a proper working car, unless your name is Tarquin, and by working, you mean driving 50m down a potholed road to pick some pre-gutted pheasants up off your man.
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
Whilst that is true and certainly seems to be the case with modern cars, the traditional resale value of a Land Rover was not to be sniffed at. The high prices could be justified as one still had an asset after a few years use. Who wants to spend 40 grand on something that is worth 50 pence in two years time?
The Freelander is a case in point. The resale value is virtually scrap price. No one wants them second hand.
I'm definitely in your second hand market. I'm a farm mechanic. I want a vehicle I can dent, pull shit and get muddy without having a coronary. I also want a vehicle I can repair (and modify) myself. However that's a problem with every modern car. Which is why I feel sad at the direction of Land Rover. But I can see why they are doing it. We're just old buggers left aside by modern society and we aren't happy about it.
However, I'll be doing my best to keep a few oldies on the road for as long as possible.
The change happened when accountants were allowed to define the engineering constraints - not just with LR, you could equate it to Maggie 'breaking' the unions, deeply unpopular but ultimately kept things afloat.

I assume you're referring to the original Freelander? there's still a lot around, whether the rear prop is fitted is another matter... Freelander2's are still selling well for good money, I had an 09 plate Commercial that I put Discovery4 seats in, great for shifting tools & stuff in, took it all over Europe and never had a problem with it - seats were great for long distance, unlike the standard ones.
There are a lot of Discovery3's coming up to fifteen years old and still going well, diagnostics isn't a big issue as most of the decent generic tools will at least read the DTC's, more specific kit will do a lot more which is great for the indy specialists, not so much for 'fred in a shed'. TBH, similar things were said when the TD5 went into Defender, now they're looked back on with nostalgic fondness (and a spare ECU & loom, just in case).
 
Resale price on a 3 year old R Rover is appalling ......reflecting the fact when it's out of warranty even Tarquin can't afford the regular repair bills .

What is probably the most capable current production 4x4 out the box in the world .....The Toyota Landcruiser 75 series seems to do just fine with beam axles and 3 diff locks with no electronic aids .....if Toyota had the balls to import them into the UK they would sell loads to the Farm/ working sector ...... it doesn't look flash but it's one hell of a vehicle that will do 500k miles without any issues .
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
.....if Toyota had the balls to import them into the UK they would sell loads to the Farm/ working sector
If that's the case, why do you think they don't? - not a leading question, just interested.
 

OneTenner

LE
Book Reviewer
If that's the case, why do you think they don't? - not a leading question, just interested.
Same reason Toyota GB don't bring the 200 series in anymore I suspect .....
A mix of not enough proposed sales volume and probably just as important for GB is it's not seen as particularly green or the right image for them to be importing 4 litre V8 diesel engined vehicles when they are pushing the Pious and other electric cars ....
The 200 series despite being a much better vehicle doesn't have the Chelsea image a R Rover does ....infact it's more likely to be bought by a Plant company owner or other working type who appreciate reliability and towing ability.
While initially they would sell 75 series they are so well built you only need one every 2 decades so not great for volume ;-) ....... that's where JLR excels.....they have vehicles people want and are happy / have to change once they run out of warranty.
 
Resale price on a 3 year old R Rover is appalling ......reflecting the fact when it's out of warranty even Tarquin can't afford the regular repair bills .

What is probably the most capable current production 4x4 out the box in the world .....The Toyota Landcruiser 75 series seems to do just fine with beam axles and 3 diff locks with no electronic aids .....if Toyota had the balls to import them into the UK they would sell loads to the Farm/ working sector ...... it doesn't look flash but it's one hell of a vehicle that will do 500k miles without any issues .
Its the fricking Euro 4 rules that keep out the 1HZ

Yet another Brexit bonus?
 
Its the fricking Euro 4 rules that keep out the 1HZ

Yet another Brexit bonus?
Not in the UK as the 200 and 75 series come with the Toyota 1VD-FTV engine ..... 4.5 litres of V8 diesel motive grunt..... Euro 4 and 5 capable
My 80 series has the 4.2 litre 1HD FT 24valve engine that replaced or upgraded the 1HZ ...... The 1HD and 1HD FT series engines are probably the best engines ever fitted to a 4x4 with legendary reliability.....
 
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