The new France under Sarkozy - beyond the borders

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#1
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6631001.stm

The French have a new president who has already been likened to Mrs Thatcher, is dynamic and driven, pro anglo-saxon, cool regarding the EU and does not mind ruffling feathers.

Not many French seem to like him, but many feel they need him - so what does this mean beyond French borders? What changes to foreign policy will he implement?
 
#2
He is already (indeed, for some time) flagged as a potential Bush poodle, and - on the French domestic front - a smoother, more digestible version of J.M. Le Pen.

All of which - if correct - adds up to no good at all for France or the UK.

If, as he intends, he seeks actively to shake the French out of their 35 hrs/week lethargy, we will see riots on French streets well before Christmas.

Or, I should have said, more riots. There were several last night.

Rock on . . . . 8) :roll:
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#3
Not that I know much about the socio-economic situation on the ground in France, but I do watch programme after programme and see article after article saying that France needs economic reform á la Maggie. This will no doubt change the base structure of French society, but post Thatcher Britain isn't in such a weak economic position, tho' we could all go on for hours about the state of our society; hopefully France will be able to use Britain's model as a way to negotiate the straits between competitive economics and labour and social responsibility.

As to leaning toward the Anglo-Saxons, the Last thing that France needs is to mimic the UK let alone the US; there are plenty of people that can teach them about the Weberian concept of the 'protestant work ethic' on the mainland.
 
#4
Nehustan said:
Not that I know much about the socio-economic situation on the ground in France, but I do watch programme after programme and see article after article saying that France needs economic reform á la Maggie.

From what I've seen, and been told by French friends, the main challenge for Sarkosy is to get rid of this 35-hour working week, which seems to have brought France to a state of lazy inanition. Most find it easier to claim benefits than work. How S. will achieve that without major chaos, I can't imagine.


This will no doubt change the base structure of French society, but post Thatcher Britain isn't in such a weak economic position, tho' we could all go on for hours about the state of our society; hopefully France will be able to use Britain's model as a way to negotiate the straits between competative economics and labour and social responsibility.

No Fr. politician will be able to sell any model to the French people, if it's overtly declared to be English/British. Having grown exceptionally lazy, putting the steel of a renewed work ethic back into the French will not be at all easy.

As to leaning toward the Anglo-Saxons, the Last thing that France needs is to mimick the UK let alone the US; there are plenty of people that can teach them about the Weberian concept of the 'protestant work ethic' on the mainland.

"Mainland" = mainland Europe, I presume? Who is the best role-model? Not Germany, surely . . . .
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#5
caubeen said:
He is already (indeed, for some time) flagged as a potential Bush poodle, and - on the French domestic front - a smoother, more digestible version of J.M. Le Pen.

All of which - if correct - adds up to no good at all for France or the UK.

If, as he intends, he seeks actively to shake the French out of their 35 hrs/week lethargy, we will see riots on French streets well before Christmas.

Or, I should have said, more riots. There were several last night.

Rock on . . . . 8) :roll:
Cannot see him being anyones poodle - even if Hilary gets in and there is a Reagan/Thatcher situation.

I see some pain in front, riots yes, face-off(s) with the unions (lets see how he stacks up against Maggie then!!), but the feeling is he will be good for France and that people are prepared to back him even if it hurts.

But is a strong pro-anglo-saxon France good for UK? That's the interesting question no-one I have spoken to seems to know......
 
#6
Nicolas Sarkozy said “I'll object to Turkey's EU membership if I become president”

"Turkey is not on the European continent and is an Asia Minor country, muslim dominated," reiterating his stance suggesting that Turkey didn't belong to European civilization."

The clash of civilizations has started


Source: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=110274
 
#7
France has suffered terrible youth unemployment for many years and this is a large reason why there are so many young French people starting new lives in the UK.

Any French leader that is willing to tackle the ridiculous labour laws in France will be a good thing for France.
In terms of becoming a Bush poodle, no-one in France would allow such a thing to happen! Part of the French identity is not doing what the Anglo-Saxon world expects NATO partners should do.

Of course, there will be more riots because of this election result but there would've been anyway. The French love a riot.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#8
caubeen said:
Nehustan said:
Not that I know much about the socio-economic situation on the ground in France, but I do watch programme after programme and see article after article saying that France needs economic reform á la Maggie.

From what I've seen, and been told by French friends, the main challenge for Sarkosy is to get rid of this 35-hour working week, which seems to have brought France to a state of lazy inanition. Most find it easier to claim benefits than work. How S. will achieve that without major chaos, I can't imagine.


This will no doubt change the base structure of French society, but post Thatcher Britain isn't in such a weak economic position, tho' we could all go on for hours about the state of our society; hopefully France will be able to use Britain's model as a way to negotiate the straits between competative economics and labour and social responsibility.

No Fr. politician will be able to sell any model to the French people, if it's overtly declared to be English/British. Having grown exceptionally lazy, putting the steel of a renewed work ethic back into the French will not be at all easy.

As to leaning toward the Anglo-Saxons, the Last thing that France needs is to mimick the UK let alone the US; there are plenty of people that can teach them about the Weberian concept of the 'protestant work ethic' on the mainland.

"Mainland" = mainland Europe, I presume? Who is the best role-model? Not Germany, surely . . . .
I think both the Dutch and the Germans sufficiently demonstrate the work ethic, and Weber was writing about them when he coined the phrase. I have worked with both Dutch and German colleagues and they do seem diligent in their work ethic. I was not referring to mainland Europe (gave my political position away there didn’t I ;) ) as a model for economic reform, I think as everyone agrees that will be á la Maggie. Mind you despite the problems Germany has (and again noting the fact I’m not an economist) they seem to have assimilated the East better than worst case scenarios painted.
 
#9
JollyRoger said:
Nicolas Sarkozy said “I'll object to Turkey's EU membership if I become president”

Doesn't everyone in their sane senses object to Turkey's EU membership??!! By what earthly right does she aspire to EU membership?

"Turkey is not on the European continent and is an Asia Minor country, muslim dominated," reiterating his stance suggesting that Turkey didn't belong to European civilization."

Precisely so. Geographically, Turkey belongs to Asia Minor (a v. useful geographical concept we seem to have mislaid recently). Norwithstanding Ataturk's reforms and achievements, all her leanings have always been eastwards, and the sooner we and they realise it the better.

The clash of civilizations has started

Historically, it has never ceased. But recent dormancy may soon give way to some rather unpleasant activity.

Source: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=110274
 
#10
JollyRoger said:
Nicolas Sarkozy said “I'll object to Turkey's EU membership if I become president”

"Turkey is not on the European continent and is an Asia Minor country, muslim dominated," reiterating his stance suggesting that Turkey didn't belong to European civilization."

The clash of civilizations has started


Source: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=110274
Eh? You must of daydreamed through history class my friend... the clash began a millenium ago and did not end before the gates of Vienna by any means.
 
#11
caubeen said:
JollyRoger said:
Nicolas Sarkozy said “I'll object to Turkey's EU membership if I become president”

Doesn't everyone in their sane senses object to Turkey's EU membership??!! By what earthly right does she aspire to EU membership?

"Turkey is not on the European continent and is an Asia Minor country, muslim dominated," reiterating his stance suggesting that Turkey didn't belong to European civilization."

Precisely so. Geographically, Turkey belongs to Asia Minor (a v. useful geographical concept we seem to have mislaid recently). Norwithstanding Ataturk's reforms and achievements, all her leanings have always been eastwards, and the sooner we and they realise it the better.

The clash of civilizations has started

Historically, it has never ceased. But recent dormancy may soon give way to some rather unpleasant activity.

Source: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=110274
Given the rabid anti-Islamism within the Turkish elite and military, the use of the Latin alphabet, membership of NATO etc I would dispute the notion that "all her leanings are eastwards". I would venture that in may cases they are not so very different to the Greeks.

Clearly most of the land mass is in Asia (wasn't much of our own Empire's...) but I don't see this necessarily need exclude them from Club Europe. The question is whether or not it would be advantageous to us. I think it possibly would.

I trust you have already launched the protest to remove Israel from Eurovision on the same grounds?
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#13
clownbasher said:
caubeen said:
JollyRoger said:
Nicolas Sarkozy said “I'll object to Turkey's EU membership if I become president”

Doesn't everyone in their sane senses object to Turkey's EU membership??!! By what earthly right does she aspire to EU membership?

"Turkey is not on the European continent and is an Asia Minor country, muslim dominated," reiterating his stance suggesting that Turkey didn't belong to European civilization."

Precisely so. Geographically, Turkey belongs to Asia Minor (a v. useful geographical concept we seem to have mislaid recently). Norwithstanding Ataturk's reforms and achievements, all her leanings have always been eastwards, and the sooner we and they realise it the better.

The clash of civilizations has started

Historically, it has never ceased. But recent dormancy may soon give way to some rather unpleasant activity.

Source: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=110274
Given the rabid anti-Islamism within the Turkish elite and military, the use of the Latin alphabet, membership of NATO etc I would dispute the notion that "all her leanings are eastwards". I would venture that in may cases they are not so very different to the Greeks.

Clearly most of the land mass is in Asia (wasn't much of our own Empire's...) but I don't see this necessarily need exclude them from Club Europe. The question is whether or not it would be advantageous to us. I think it possibly would.

I trust you have already launched the protest to remove Israel from Eurovision on the same grounds?
Turkish EU membership is a whole new topic, but I understand Sarkozy favours a "special status" regarding the Turkish EU position, not full membership. In this he reflects the majority view of the French populace, so its a no-brainer.
 
#14
clownbasher said:
Clearly most of the land mass is in Asia (wasn't much of our own Empire's...) but I don't see this necessarily need exclude them from Club Europe. The question is whether or not it would be advantageous to us. I think it possibly would.
LOL, Insanity.

Europe, Asia, America, Africa, don't they usuallly mean geographical areas, not empires or countries.

So the logic would be you couldn't call South Africa part of South America, just as you could not call New Zealand part of Africa, just as you can not call a country, Turkey European as it is in Asia.



Education Education Education, Blair failure...
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#15
JollyRoger said:
clownbasher said:
Clearly most of the land mass is in Asia (wasn't much of our own Empire's...) but I don't see this necessarily need exclude them from Club Europe. The question is whether or not it would be advantageous to us. I think it possibly would.
LOL, Insanity.

Europe, Asia, America, Africa, don't they usuallly mean geographical areas, not empires or countries.

So the logic would be you couldn't call South Africa part of South America, just as you could not call New Zealand part of Africa, just as you can not call a country, Turkey European as it is in Asia.



Education Education Education, Blair failure...
Even with the important precedent of the Eurovision Song Contest - I would have to agree.

However the current EU thinking is more about "European'ness" and aspirations towards, rather than geography - which is why the ball is in court.............
 
#16
Nehustan said:
I think both the Dutch and the Germans sufficiently demonstrate the work ethic, and Weber was writing about them when he coined the phrase. I have worked with both Dutch and German colleagues and they do seem diligent in their work ethic. I was not referring to mainland Europe (gave my political position away there didn’t I ;) ) as a model for economic reform, I think as everyone agrees that will be á la Maggie. Mind you despite the problems Germany has (and again noting the fact I’m not an economist) they seem to have assimilated the East better than worst case scenarios painted.
I think the French have as good a work ethic as any one else, the French feckless are much the same as the German feckless and so on. What they have shown though is that banning overtime does not make more people get employed, neither does too much employment protection make your companies more efficient and make them invest more at home.

I think we will have to wait and see whether he is just all talk or whether he will face out the unions and really make changes happen, it may be prudent to be careful about planning holidays which depend on travel in or through France for a year or so.

Peter
 

Alsacien

MIA
Moderator
#17
maxi_77 said:
Nehustan said:
I think both the Dutch and the Germans sufficiently demonstrate the work ethic, and Weber was writing about them when he coined the phrase. I have worked with both Dutch and German colleagues and they do seem diligent in their work ethic. I was not referring to mainland Europe (gave my political position away there didn’t I ;) ) as a model for economic reform, I think as everyone agrees that will be á la Maggie. Mind you despite the problems Germany has (and again noting the fact I’m not an economist) they seem to have assimilated the East better than worst case scenarios painted.
I think the French have as good a work ethic as any one else, the French feckless are much the same as the German feckless and so on. What they have shown though is that banning overtime does not make more people get employed, neither does too much employment protection make your companies more efficient and make them invest more at home.

I think we will have to wait and see whether he is just all talk or whether he will face out the unions and really make changes happen, it may be prudent to be careful about planning holidays which depend on travel in or through France for a year or so.
Peter
...and for that you win the prize for the first concrete impact to UK from the Sarkozy election victory :D
 
#18
Alsacien said:
maxi_77 said:
Nehustan said:
I think both the Dutch and the Germans sufficiently demonstrate the work ethic, and Weber was writing about them when he coined the phrase. I have worked with both Dutch and German colleagues and they do seem diligent in their work ethic. I was not referring to mainland Europe (gave my political position away there didn’t I ;) ) as a model for economic reform, I think as everyone agrees that will be á la Maggie. Mind you despite the problems Germany has (and again noting the fact I’m not an economist) they seem to have assimilated the East better than worst case scenarios painted.
I think the French have as good a work ethic as any one else, the French feckless are much the same as the German feckless and so on. What they have shown though is that banning overtime does not make more people get employed, neither does too much employment protection make your companies more efficient and make them invest more at home.

I think we will have to wait and see whether he is just all talk or whether he will face out the unions and really make changes happen, it may be prudent to be careful about planning holidays which depend on travel in or through France for a year or so.
Peter
...and for that you win the prize for the first concrete impact to UK from the Sarkozy election victory :D
I thank you sir.

If he is successful though we could be in for more than travel disruption. France may well become more competitive which will have an impact on us and also he may help nudge the EU around in a direction more suited to the UK way of thought. I suspect the French and their neigbhors may be in for what they say are 'interesting times'.

Peter
 
#19
clownbasher said:
caubeen said:
JollyRoger said:
Nicolas Sarkozy said “I'll object to Turkey's EU membership if I become president”

Doesn't everyone in their sane senses object to Turkey's EU membership??!! By what earthly right does she aspire to EU membership?

"Turkey is not on the European continent and is an Asia Minor country, muslim dominated," reiterating his stance suggesting that Turkey didn't belong to European civilization."

Precisely so. Geographically, Turkey belongs to Asia Minor (a v. useful geographical concept we seem to have mislaid recently). Norwithstanding Ataturk's reforms and achievements, all her leanings have always been eastwards, and the sooner we and they realise it the better.

The clash of civilizations has started

Historically, it has never ceased. But recent dormancy may soon give way to some rather unpleasant activity.

Source: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=110274
Given the rabid anti-Islamism within the Turkish elite and military, the use of the Latin alphabet, membership of NATO etc I would dispute the notion that "all her leanings are eastwards". I would venture that in may cases they are not so very different to the Greeks.

Post-Ataturk, Turkey has been very divided and schizophrenic as to her true role. But, from my reading of history and my experience of contemporary Turkey, I'd regard her allegiance and destiny as decidedly eastward-leaning.

Clearly most of the land mass is in Asia (wasn't much of our own Empire's...) but I don't see this necessarily need exclude them from Club Europe. The question is whether or not it would be advantageous to us. I think it possibly would.

If Turkey were essentially - or even significantly - Europhile, I'd agree. But recent trends in Turkey betray those deep-rooted eastward instincts, which the EU is better off without. (Do excuse that infelicitous terminal preposition.)

I trust you have already launched the protest to remove Israel from Eurovision on the same grounds?

Long, long ago, dear boy! Israel? European? FFS! Geography, history etc etc etc. Same (mutatis mutandis) goes for Morocco, which also wants EU membership.

Unless the term "Europe" has absolutely no geographical, cultural, religious or other serious historical significance.
 
#20
Alsacien said:
Even with the important precedent of the Eurovision Song Contest - I would have to agree.

However the current EU thinking is more about "European'ness" and aspirations towards, rather than geography - which is why the ball is in court.............

Europeanness does not exist among the majority of the publics; and actually an identity is ideologically being gradually constructed by the political elite of the European Union through education, European citizenship, and common history and future.
The European Union has clearly displayed a stronger political unity since the Tindemans Report (Leo Tindemans was Belgian Prime Minister at that time) submitted to the European Council at the end of December 1975, which prompted the member states to form a unified political entity with its own flag, anthem, myths, memories, peoples, regions, and rights and duties granted to its EU citizens.

Allowing Turkey in, is regarded as a threat. Why, well over the last week we have seen its people stop attempts of allowing Islamic Law, Islamic Foreign policy rule their politics.

This is what Europe does not want, 70 million muslims on its door step trying to change Europe in to a hell hole of oppression.
 

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