The 'Myth' of welfare scroungers

#41
It's great how the only valid evidence is that which supports your point of view, and yes that applies to both sides of the argument. However, I don't think anyone will dispute we are in the middle of a recession, and the ranks of the unemployed far outnumber the available job vacancies. So why the big fuss about the feckless?* If they're forced to get a job, they'll only be depriving someone else of the opportunity.

Wouldn't the right whingers be better off venting their bile at the Polish & other economic migrants, or are they too worried they'd down tools on all those cash in hand (building, or perhaps just "hand..." fits better for some) jobs they're doing for the tax averse, self serving, rich boys.

*Rhetorical question, it's a blatant smokescreen for their own pocket stuffing at the expense of the rest of us. The only question is if they have enough contempt to think we'd fall for it, or if they are stupid enough to believe their own crap.
If you weren't such a liberal bed wetting twat, I'd take you out on shift with me. Not only do these 'feckless' people exist in some numbers, we have now also inherited the feckless of other countries (most of the good ones having already fleeced the country and gone back home - but probably still claiming for their kids who never even came over here - and yes, that really did happen!).

Sadly, those self-same feckless, workshy, fag smoking, plasma watching scrotes are the minority of the population that make the majority of the emergency calls - because hey, it's cheaper than a taxi........at least to them!

What is funny though, is when they tell you 'I pay your wages' (and yes, that has actually happened!).

And the cnuts are getting fatter!
 
#42
I do. 8 and a half years of policing in Newport and the Gwent valleys. I can tell you it's true. There's a worryingly large amount of people out there who have no intention of ever working, from the professionally unemployed to the professionally sick. It's not just the benefits that cost the country. Their feckless lifestyles also strain the police, courts, (occasionally) the prisons, the DHSS (or whatever it's called these days) and the NHS.

All seen with my own eyes and not an inch of the Daily Mail read either.
Yes and that in an area that has benefited from job creating subsidy since the 1936 Special Areas Reconstruction Act through to the Barnett formula. A purpose built skillcentre I think ... because the area's unemployed would not travel to re-train. Lowering of academic standards at Pontypool and Ebbw Vale techs to get people through questionable one year HNC courses.

Many years ago the Argus at Newport had a report about "If ever the English find out how we are spending their money". Setting up local re-training because the areas unemployed would not travel even as far as Cardiff to attend courses. Cardiff's hundreds of re-training course vacancies.

Plessey re-located to Newport in the 70s and lamented the low standard of re-trained former unemployed. Even their site services "Engineer" was a former unemployed Newport bus conductor. By the early 80s Plessey cancelled plans to bring R and D to Newport due to the low quality workforce and the low number and low quality of Welsh graduates. In the 90s Matsushita warned that unless education standards in South Wales finally picked up then inward investment would dry to a trickle.

If you go back to the 70s (Argus again) then advisors were asking Welsh 6th formers to leave semi skilled admin and police jobs to the less able. 6th formers were asked to go to university to take engineering degrees.

They didn't listen. After all they could get a job straight from school at the benefits offices.

So the fact is you were policing an area that has absorbed huge amounts of money Cwmbran new town was built by funds poached from what should have been spent re-housing cockneys bombed out in the Blitz.

At the time the Pontypool MP pushed to divert the funding to Wales he was warned that the new town would unbalance the economy of the area.

Still the taffs went for it ... f-ck the cockneys we can have the money by yere.

I think after Plessey was shut down by Marconi the two Newport MPs bleated away in the Commons and the Celtic Lakes development alone copped 1.6 billion quid.

Yet Paul Flynn MP was writing to those who had exposed Plessey fraud against MOD congratulating them for doing a useful job.

I always think of that area whenever it is suggested that public money should be used to create jobs. A 76 year experiment there just proves that idle useless ********* don't change.
 
#43
It's great how the only valid evidence is that which supports your point of view, and yes that applies to both sides of the argument. However, I don't think anyone will dispute we are in the middle of a recession, and the ranks of the unemployed far outnumber the available job vacancies. So why the big fuss about the feckless?* If they're forced to get a job, they'll only be depriving someone else of the opportunity.

Wouldn't the right whingers be better off venting their bile at the Polish & other economic migrants, or are they too worried they'd down tools on all those cash in hand (building, or perhaps just "hand..." fits better for some) jobs they're doing for the tax averse, self serving, rich boys.

*Rhetorical question, it's a blatant smokescreen for their own pocket stuffing at the expense of the rest of us. The only question is if they have enough contempt to think we'd fall for it, or if they are stupid enough to believe their own crap.
There are jobs... just some feel better on the dole. You may recall a few years back theinterviews of doleys who were snubbng the chance at working in the fields picking fruit.

Alot of them are just fcuking lazy.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
#44
So the fact is you were policing an area that has absorbed huge amounts of money Cwmbran new town was built by funds poached from what should have been spent re-housing cockneys bombed out in the Blitz.

At the time the Pontypool MP pushed to divert the funding to Wales he was warned that the new town would unbalance the economy of the area.

Still the taffs went for it ... f-ck the cockneys we can have the money by yere.

I think after Plessey was shut down by Marconi the two Newport MPs bleated away in the Commons and the Celtic Lakes development alone copped 1.6 billion quid.

Yet Paul Flynn MP was writing to those who had exposed Plessey fraud against MOD congratulating them for doing a useful job.

I always think of that area whenever it is suggested that public money should be used to create jobs. A 76 year experiment there just proves that idle useless ********* don't change.
The piss taking can be on both sides. About 15 years ago now I went up to the Valleys to run a factory for a year to sort out some production problems. It was on an industrial estate not a million miles from Ebbw Vale and was intended to provide alternative jobs for people when the steel plants closed down. There were a lot of grants on offer to entice companies to move to this industrial estate - particularly if you were an international company.

And then as now, those in government and the CS were considerably less experienced in business than the companies that were coming to the industrial estate. As a result the contracts had loopholes beyond belief. I think in order to qualify for the grant you had to be on sight for a year, employ local workers and have some output.

A Czech company won the award for piss-taking. It came in, installed some very expensive machinery (largely paid for by the grants) and took on a minuscule workforce. It took nine months to get up and running and the amount of goods produced was contractual requirement + 1. After one year and one week the articulated lorries turned up to take the plant back to the factories in Czechoslovakia.

The local companies that took the grants tended to last about 18 months. They did well the first year while they were on grants but when the grants ran out after a year they turned loss making and went bust 6 months later. What muppet approved the business plans I don't know - it was certainly common knowledge locally that the companies were not going to survive a few months after they started up.

The lesson of this is that direct government grants don't generally create jobs. It is right that government invests money in building UK companies but throwing money directly at the problem is just pissing it away.

You need to invest in skills and training for the work force. You need to dish out low interest loans to encourage small companies to invest long term. And you need to pay for genuine industry experts (and not the muppets from the big consultancy companies who've never got their hands dirty in their life) to mentor the small companies so they can grow with the minimum of mistakes.

Wordsmith
 
#45
There are jobs... just some feel better on the dole. You may recall a few years back theinterviews of doleys who were snubbng the chance at working in the fields picking fruit.

Alot of them are just fcuking lazy.
They ARE better-off on the dole. If you can have the same standard of living and your time to yourself, why would anyone give up hours of their precious life in some dead-end job? I'm not saying it's a good thing, but career dolies are not stupid - just like the Head of Social Services who is paid his wages via a private company to reduce his tax bill, they've looked at the situation they're in and the regulations that they're subject to, and made a rational cost-benefit analysis that maximises their gain.

If you had roughly the same level of income from both, would you sooner pick fruit or get up late, have a couple of brews, take the dog for a walk by the canal, stop off for a pint, take the kids to the park etc? A life of ease or a life of toil, for the same reward? You'd need to be a ******* idiot to choose the toil.
 
#46
Blame the game not the player...

I fully agree with their thinking to a degree. I don't agree with the system.

Which is why (in agreement with some of the comments from the report) I beleive in a work for benefits system.
 
#47
My missus, after years as a SSAFA volunteer, decided to qualify as a social worker when her service was up.
12 years later she has to keep her views and politics to herself: she's become so right wing it would get probably get her sacked.
She's given up trying to help workshy trash who won't help themselves and now works in a team helping older people, who have known genuine hardship.
Her conclusion? The welfare state was created for a generation that deserved it. It's created one that doesn't.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
#48
They ARE better-off on the dole. If you can have the same standard of living and your time to yourself, why would anyone give up hours of their precious life in some dead-end job? I'm not saying it's a good thing, but career dolies are not stupid - just like the Head of Social Services who is paid his wages via a private company to reduce his tax bill, they've looked at the situation they're in and the regulations that they're subject to, and made a rational cost-benefit analysis that maximises their gain.
I think it depends on your personal situation.

If you're not blessed with brains or manual skills, the temptation must be to say, I'd rather be paid to sit on my arse than work for the same money. But if you have some degree of education or a skill, getting into a dead end job can be a springboard to bigger and better things. Suppose you do 2 years at minimum wage, but then get a job that pays you 30% more - then you're better off.

(On a personal level, I was willing to take a 1/3 hit in my wages to make a career change from metallurgy to IT. I've now made up the lost ground and an in a much more secure job. Sometimes a short term financial sacrifice leads to a long term gain).

And even if you don't have a lot of brains or great skills, there are still escape routes if you're willing to work at it. Retail is a classic example. Supermarkets have about a 40% turnover of staff every year, so there are always vacancies coming up.

Tesco Store Roles

Go onto the night shift and you'll get a bit better than minimum wage because its shift work.

Even if you start on days, if you show a willingness to learn and that you're likely to be there a few years, you could end up as team leader. That means you've got a team of 3 - 4 people and you make sure that a set of aisles is always stocked with products. I believe that Tesco pay about £18 - £20K: again better than minimum wage.

There are also other benefits like staff discounts and (now) mandatory pension schemes that push up the effective total pay.

There are escapes from the dole/minimum wage trap, but you've got to have the personal drive to do it. What's better; sitting at home with no hope or earning above minimum wage in a supermarket with a few perks like a cheaper shopping basket?

Wordsmith
 
#49
Wordsmith, what you are demonstrating there is you have a good value system, making immediate sacrifices for the benefit of the longer term.
With the underclass it's all about immediate gratification, that's the big difference...(not that I'm knocking a bit of instant gratification: I'm just not asking any bugger else to foot the bill.)
 

ancienturion

LE
Book Reviewer
#50
Her conclusion? The welfare state was created for a generation that deserved it. It's created one that doesn't.
One of the best definitions I've heard in a long time.
 
#51
Yup. Your education and experience has shown you the value of investing in yourself to attempt to improve your lot above the basic requirements. Imagination, self discipline, goal setting. Not items on a lot of people's agenda.
 
#53
At the risk of starting to sound like Uncle Albert...

During my service in CivPol, I saw 100's of families who were scrounging benefits. They simply topped up their "earnings" by selling drugs and shoplifting!
 
T

Taffd

Guest
#54
Blame the game not the player...

I fully agree with their thinking to a degree. I don't agree with the system.

Which is why (in agreement with some of the comments from the report) I beleive in a work for benefits system.
Don't want to get into an argument and wasn't going to comment on this thread, but can we all stop talking about 'working for benefits'.

If one is working, one receives wages. It becomes a job. The benefits cease to be benefits and become a wage, regardless of the level of pay or the work required to earn it.

We could for example get rid of unemployment benefits entirely and offer 'community work' to those who become, or are, unemployed, the rate of pay and required working hours to equate to what is now paid out in benefits. Which means if you want your rent paid as well, you'd work more hours. Which means if you had children you could work more hours to fund their care.

It wouldn't actually save any money though, so I don't know if, in these cost-cutting times, it would be a goer.

Whatever, 'working for benefits' is a nonsense.
 
#55
So when I walk into a house to start doing some work I imagine seeing them all sat in front of the tv drinking cider at 10am I'm actually imagining it?

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using ARRSE mobile app
 
T

Taffd

Guest
#56
So when I walk into a house to start doing some work I imagine seeing them all sat in front of the tv drinking cider at 10am I'm actually imagining it?

Sent from my HTC Wildfire S A510e using ARRSE mobile app
If you imagine seeing people in front of a TV, you are indeed imagining it.
 
#57
Don't want to get into an argument and wasn't going to comment on this thread, but can we all stop talking about 'working for benefits'.

If one is working, one receives wages. It becomes a job. The benefits cease to be benefits and become a wage, regardless of the level of pay or the work required to earn it.

We could for example get rid of unemployment benefits entirely and offer 'community work' to those who become, or are, unemployed, the rate of pay and required working hours to equate to what is now paid out in benefits. Which means if you want your rent paid as well, you'd work more hours. Which means if you had children you could work more hours to fund their care.

It wouldn't actually save any money though, so I don't know if, in these cost-cutting times, it would be a goer.

Whatever, 'working for benefits' is a nonsense.
I would say that even if working, as I put forward else where £6 an hour, no tax until £12,000 pa (for all) 50p below teh minimum wage (at max rate) to take in to account of educational/training allowances and of course 100 free days worth of money in order to find a job we are still in 'benefits' teritory rather than 'wages'.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
#58
Doesn't it all come down to...

Maslow's hierarchy of needs...

Without getting too nerdy, I think this goes some way to explaining the benefits trap. I suspect a lot of the 'professionally unemployed' come from broken backgrounds and leave school with a poor education. As such they get stuck on the first two levels of Maslow's pyramid and are content with having their physiological and safety needs covered.

You need to have the love/belonging and esteem levels covered as well to have the drive to better yourself in life. Have those and you might see putting in the extra effort to get to the self actualisation level as worth it.

It's a very difficult cycle to break. You have to do your best to make sure that as many kids as possible are brought up with a loving family background on a decent estate. And that when they go through the educational system they get the skills to succeed in life - be they academic or vocational. If they succeed in life, they won't want to be 'professionally unemployed'.

Only by breaking the cycle will we get away from:

The welfare state was created for a generation that deserved it. It's created one that doesn't.
Wordsmith
 
#59
When I retired (at 60) I was asked by my former employers (Aerospace & Defence Logistics) if I would consider working / advising on a part time basis. Part of this was doing Inductions and Introductions of the company to new starters. It soon became obvious of those attending who were keen to retrain and who were merely making up the numbers / sent from the jobcentre.
After a number of months the company began to introduce more testing assessments other than a mere interview prior to commencing work. You would not believe the amount of who adopted "I'm not doing that, the jobcentre didn't tell me about this".........one even said it "was against my yuman rites."
The bottom line was alot just did not want to work, and I doubt whether some even knew that 07.30 occurs twice in a day. Admittedly alot of the positions were for a warehouse role, but with subsidised canteen, subsidised travel, free workwear, an active social committee and every chance to progress
 
#60
Earlier this year I left a job where I'd worked for 15 months going door to door in Glasgow and the surrounding area. Once you get into the real shitholes - the Castlemilks and Easterhouses and Drumchapels of this world - practically everyone is on benefits and is quite happy to stay that way. I wasn't exactly conducting research, but you try going round your local council estate and asking people if they can spare £2 a week for a charity; you get some pretty honest answers about where their money comes from.

Before I worked that job I knew there were scroungers, but I thought that stories about widescreen tvs and unwashed children were a DM frothing-at-the-mouth type myth. After it I had these to add to the list:

1. The widescreen tv complete with sky/virgin HD in a house with peeling wallpaper and, in one case, missing floorboards.

2. The older woman who says she's done her bit by raising/bringing into the world 5/6/7 children and 30-50 grandchildren - all of whom she looks after because none of them work.

3. The young fella with the remains of half a dozen score bags scattered round his living room who can't sign up because he doesn't have a bank account because he's never had a job - but still finds the money to get stoned every day.

4. The old labour voter who "hasn't worked since Thatcher!" because she did away with his job and in the intervening 30 years hasn't looked for a job as a point of principle.

There's others, but those are the ones that stand out. The point being, whatever you think of human nature and however you'd react when out of work and whatever you'd do to improve the situation there are legions of scumbags who will take the piss when someone offers them a helping hand.
 

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