The Moskva sinking

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Posting here as unlikely to be of interest to anyone who has never been through HMS Havoc.

A rather dry DI analyst style assessment of what actually happened to the Slava class ship whacked by the dastardly Ukrainians*. She was launched the year Thatcher became PM.



( hope this hasn't already appeared elsewhere. I was in Poland when the event occurred so haven't been following the main thread too well. Apologies if it's old hat.)

I was trying to explain to my co-driver that the kinetic energy of a twenty foot object weighing the same as a VW Golf, travelling at around 150mph was fairly significant . Without the Brucie-bonus of 330lb of HE detonating inside the vessel.

Two of them.

And that modern warships weren't armoured and hulls could be pierced by a machine gun round if it came to it.

I'm sure @jrwlynch and @Ninja_Stoker can comment on the survivability and Damage Control aspects with greater wisdom, clarity and wardroom assurance :)

SOURCE
'' The Neptune missile is a Ukrainian subsonic, low-altitude anti-ship cruise missile. The missiles are based on the Cold War-era SS-N-25 “Switchblade,” which was so closely modeled on the American AGM-84 Harpoon anti-ship missile, it was derisively nicknamed “Harpoonski.”

After the Cold War, Russia fielded newer versions of the missile as the Kh-35, while Ukraine went on to develop the Neptune, which has a range of 190 miles and packs a 330-pound, high-explosive warhead.

USNI News, quoting an unnamed U.S. defense official, said that Moskva suffered major damage and was headed to the port of Sebastopol, part of the territory that Russia seized from Ukraine in 2014. RIA Novosti, a Russian state-controlled news outlet, made no mention of a missile attack, attributing the incident to a shipboard fire. ''



R-360 Neptune - Wikipedia


1650470858092.png



*To paraphrase a certain former RAF officer:

The Nazis Russians entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Mariupol , Kharkiv , Ky'iv and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind......'

Selah.



PPS ... greetings to all former virtual shipmates from the good ol' Ustafish
 
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RBMK

LE
Book Reviewer
There is the possibility that the Moskva was also not "closed up" at action stations and thus the fire would spread quickly.

What we don't know is the state of training of the crew and what shape their damage control drills were in.

As far as I'm aware, there are no armoured ships left in service any where in the world and the modern doctrine is to detect and intercept incoming weapons e.g. missiles and destroy or decoy them before they hit. This is done using chaff, jamming, SAMs and CIWS.

Obviously, this didn't happen and it looks like the Ukranians pulled one on the Russians.
 
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Ravers

LE
Kit Reviewer
I read a post on Facebook from a matelot who’d been on that ship a few years back.

His assessment of the DC arrangements, command and control, equipment and training was that it was a complete bag of shit.

No section bases like we have. DC and firefighting gear was stashed in high risk compartments like machinery spaces. All equipment appeared to be in rag order and badly maintained, if at all.

This largely tallies up with my visit to an Udaloy in 2004. Everything was for show. Looked ok from a distance but when you got up close everything was fucked. Grease nipples and bearings painted over. Stuff that was supposed to move had been painted in place.

But perhaps the biggest difference between Jonny Roosk and us, is that senior rates don’t really exist in the Russian Navy.

They have a conscript Navy and apart from a few officers, everyone has less than two years experience and is basically just biding their time until they can leave. Your average IT worker in Russia earns more than an Admiral so no one stays once their conscription is up. The most salty lads on that ship were the equivalent of our AB2s on their first deployments, in terms of experience.

The thing that saves ships in DC situations is good command and control. Lots of switched on Killicks, POs and Chiefs with years of experience and training who know their ship inside and out. This middle tier of management is absolutely crucial.

This simply isn’t a thing in the Russian Navy. They just have a few officers, trying to direct a bunch of inexperienced kids who don’t want to be there.

I’ve said it time and time again.

We could have the Russian Navy.
 
Good example of the kinetic energy a missile contains.

 

Goatman

ADC
Book Reviewer
Yeah, well said ....guess what ?

For those who haven't got their heads around it, that photo is of the 'exit wound'......
 
Yeah, well said ....guess what ?

For those who haven't got their heads around it, that photo is of the 'exit wound'......
Yep. It’s a BIG missile - 28 feet long and a speed of Mach 3.
 

Brotherton Lad

LE
Kit Reviewer
My only contact with the Russian Navy was in Kaliningrad , Baltic Fleet. We had a jolly on one of their monster hovercraft for 90 minutes. I‘m a pongo and so will only say it was a bit rickety. Once back in base - an old German one - it took 90 minutes to disembark because the ramp had jammed shut. This was eventually fixed by a succession of increasingly larger hammers and much profanity. Finally we had vodka and blini aboard a frigate. That ship was in much better order and the Captain was charming and professional. Late 1990s.
 
I read a post on Facebook from a matelot who’d been on that ship a few years back.

His assessment of the DC arrangements, command and control, equipment and training was that it was a complete bag of shit.

No section bases like we have. DC and firefighting gear was stashed in high risk compartments like machinery spaces. All equipment appeared to be in rag order and badly maintained, if at all.

This largely tallies up with my visit to an Udaloy in 2004. Everything was for show. Looked ok from a distance but when you got up close everything was fucked. Grease nipples and bearings painted over. Stuff that was supposed to move had been painted in place.

But perhaps the biggest difference between Jonny Roosk and us, is that senior rates don’t really exist in the Russian Navy.

They have a conscript Navy and apart from a few officers, everyone has less than two years experience and is basically just biding their time until they can leave. Your average IT worker in Russia earns more than an Admiral so no one stays once their conscription is up. The most salty lads on that ship were the equivalent of our AB2s on their first deployments, in terms of experience.

The thing that saves ships in DC situations is good command and control. Lots of switched on Killicks, POs and Chiefs with years of experience and training who know their ship inside and out. This middle tier of management is absolutely crucial.

This simply isn’t a thing in the Russian Navy. They just have a few officers, trying to direct a bunch of inexperienced kids who don’t want to be there.

I’ve said it time and time again.

We could have the Russian Navy.
I wonder are the crews of the SSNs and SSBNs as inexperienced and laissez faire, or do they have a more experienced and professional crew(s)?
 

_Chimurenga_

LE
Gallery Guru
I wonder are the crews of the SSNs and SSBNs as inexperienced and laissez faire, or do they have a more experienced and professional crew(s)?
Considering the results of the enquiry into the Kursk disaster, I would not assume they are much better.
 
I copied the piece that Ravers mentioned into the main Ukraine thread.

None of us know how good or bad the russian (deliberate small r) navy is. All we can do is compare it with the less than stellar land forces we have seen. Even the 'elite' forces such as Spetznaz and the Paras seem to have been, well, underwhelming.

We have all seen the rusting submarines in the Northern Fleet bases. There is a video of the inside of a Typhoon, which was a bit tired and scruffy. They do have a couple of new boats which are supposedly all singing and dancing, but I'm well out the loop now and the russians have been known to fib about capability.

I doubt if a RN crew would have saved Moskva given the damage, but I do think there would have been a decent number of survivors due to our DC training and the Horsea Lake stuff. Even Belgrano had lots of survivors.
 

Mattb

LE
command and control, equipment and training was that it was a complete bag of shit.

Everything was for show. Looked ok from a distance but when you got up close everything was fucked.

everyone has less than two years experience and is basically just biding their time until they can leave.

[This middle tier of management is absolutely crucial.]

They just have a few officers, trying to direct a bunch of inexperienced kids who don’t want to be there.
Or in short, generally about the same as their army then.
 
I wonder are the crews of the SSNs and SSBNs as inexperienced and laissez faire, or do they have a more experienced and professional crew(s)?
Historically, it has been seen as significantly better. The Russian submarine service is very much the prestigious side of their navy, such as it is.

Reference Kursk: submarines are horribly dangerous places. While that incident most probably wouldn't have happened in the RN (we are better at not taking highly experimental weaponry to sea), the rarity of significant incidents says a lot about the greater professionalism of Russian submariners compared to their surface peers.
 
Rarity of incidents?


View attachment 657100

And these are the ones we know about never mind the near misses!
Right - but the vast majority of these are "sunk under tow" (and one is a deliberate scuttling!). It probably says something about Russian damage control that they've had to tow home more boats after major fires on board, but these are still not big numbers. There are only three sunk-by-catastrophe on that list and that puts them not far from the Yanks.

We also don't know about our near misses or the Americans'.
 

anglo

LE
Historically, it has been seen as significantly better. The Russian submarine service is very much the prestigious side of their navy, such as it is.

Reference Kursk: submarines are horribly dangerous places. While that incident most probably wouldn't have happened in the RN (we are better at not taking highly experimental weaponry to sea), the rarity of significant incidents says a lot about the greater professionalism of Russian submariners compared to their surface peers.
On the morning of 16 June 1955, Sidon was moored alongside the depot ship HMS Maidstone in Portland Harbour. Two 21-inch Mark 12 High test peroxide-powered torpedoes, code-named "Fancy", had been loaded aboard for testing. Fifty-six officers and crewmen were aboard.

At 0825, an explosion in one of the Fancy torpedoes (but not the warhead) burst the number-three torpedo tube it was loaded into and ruptured the forward-most two watertight bulkheads. Fire, toxic gases, and smoke accompanied the blast. Twelve men in the forward compartments died instantly and seven others were seriously injured.
 

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