The MoD possible the most inefficient Dept in the world?

[Oyibo]

Maybe I'm missing something, but the OP describes in detail his view of a disfunctional civil service, and the towards the end describes (in bold, and with broadbrush opinions) how it is the fault of individuals in the military working in the MoD.

Friends in the miltary who have worked in the MoD could come up with far more concise descriptions of civil servants' ineptitude (not all of the civil servants, I hasten to add).

 

[Busterdog]

Some of us remember TSR2!

 

[supermatelot]

My wife is a CS The OP has a point. I myself can also see the parallels with the civilianised side of MOD bases.
Can the NHS be thrown into this equation? The place I work for gets hundreds of thousands per year for doing what "any old member of staff" could actually do but - they are above that.

 

[bluntslane]

I'm military. I was recently in a meeting at a site where one of the lead CS grades announced that their future annual reports would be compared by a Board with, I think, 5 reports of same grade CS. This is the CS way of improving performance (or firmly identifying those who are performing less well).

My personal view is that some genius has decided to re-invent the Army annual promotion board system, but in their own improved style.

I keep reading "John's"(?) headline blog's on DII about "Doing it Better" and "Improving Performance". If I was in the Civil Service I would seriously be worried about getting culled, because your Glorious Leader is coming across to me like a passive aggressive Laughing Assassin.

 

[brighton hippy]

Sorry the pentagon lost a hanger full of helicopters as we havnt agot a anger full of spare helicopters to lose we are not in the same league.

 

[rickshaw-major]

Just to be clear the latter service with MoD refers to latter period of time (to 2012) so as MoD exists now (or at least was for me).
Do not know what IMS is but can work out KTN. To be more specific I was an Admin Officer grade in the Railway yard - responsible for consigning deliveries out from Kineton. Biggest challenge working out what to do with the assorted pioneers that seemed to be sent to me every morning.
Interesting - might actually get more notice taken here and meaningful comment than I ever got in the MoD.
Anyways I will leave you to it now - I need to stop getting distracted by ARSE and find fresh employment (looks like that might be a bit of a challenge).

Internal Movement Sheets - that explains a lot about traffic then.

 

[ObnoxiousJockGit]

Sorry the pentagon lost a hanger full of helicopters as we havnt agot a anger full of spare helicopters to lose we are not in the same league.

Yeah we knew where ours were, just couldn't fly them because the MOD knew better than the manufacturers.

 

[slipperman]

Massive Snip etc.

"I think you should take a good hard look at yourselves" - excuse me, but as a Band B in a managerial role, I believe you could have been part of the problem!

"Band B in MoD (management role - Analysis specialism)" - in CS speak, I believe that made you AD or full Colonel equivalent, yet you feel the need to express your angst on an internet site to people you don't know?


"I think I will shoot myself" - quite right too.

Selective snipping of the OP, granted, but if you're an example of a CS "fast-tracker" and you can't even sort out the grammar in the thread title, then no wonder the MOD is as bad as you infer!

 

[Incubus_Imperator]

The period you describe was subject of a specialist TV programme at the time. A documentary with laughs called "Yes Minister".

The 1985 episode on the subject of unreliability of torpedos was trenchant.

Possibly the funniest thing you've ever said... although likely unintentional.

HMS Trenchant (S91) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

No episodes on Kent Police though...

 

[Badger_Heed]

Hello,
I thought I might offer my view of the MoD. Especially as ..................................snipped for brevity and to prevent instantaneous coma.......................
Let the flaming commence (if I have not bored everyone to tears).

Thank you for that thought provoking post Boris.

I notice in your second paragraph that you alluded to a .....................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

 

[Ethel_the_Aardvark]

Sorry the pentagon lost a hanger full of helicopters as we havnt agot a anger full of spare helicopters to lose we are not in the same league.

We've barely got a hanger.

 

[Ethel_the_Aardvark]

"I think you should take a good hard look at yourselves" - excuse me, but as a Band B in a managerial role, I believe you could have been part of the problem!

"Band B in MoD (management role - Analysis specialism)" - in CS speak, I believe that made you AD or full Colonel equivalent, yet you feel the need to express your angst on an internet site to people you don't know?

But anyone in the actual military who has ever worked with Civil Serpents knows just how utterly laughable any claim to comparable rank is. I have seen Band Bs and Cs that I wouldn't trust to run a bedding store.

 

[Davetheclown]

It was decreed that the Bulldog variant required a fridge. The fridge was for the Medical Services to store there drugs, and vaccines. A UOR was created and sent off with no reply. Three years later a medical unit had a visit from a Rep from a procurement team, in tow a group of engineers, a civil servant, a Colonel from a Infantry unit (Non Mechanised) and a large van. Amused the OC took them to the shed where the Bulldogs were held. Tiffy nearly threw a fit as they were on 3 monthlys, the fleet manager threw a hissy fit as he was prepping kit. So they had to drag a bulldog ambulance out, fit it to full CES and fit Radios.

The engineers jumped in the wagon and asked if the bowman fit can be moved? Er no its permanent fit,

Hmm Engineers drag out a DPM chest freezer prototype, to fit into the area occupied by the CBRN filter, hmm well it fits, they wire it up it works magic.

Engineers look happy, CS looks happy the Colonel looks happy yay a successful fit, the engine is turned off and the batteries drain in 10 minutes Doh.

Fleet Manager turns up, CMT Class 1 Staff Sergeant takes one look laughs looks at the OC. The OC has look and Laughs, then gets his mobile out. Twenty minutes later a red faced QM turns up with the Drugs and Vaccines, They fill a third of a shoebox, the fridge is a twenty litre capacity. None of the CS fits, you cant open the door without dragging it out and the wiring loom is mental. OC speaks to the CS and has a gentle word.

It turns out that no one spoke to the end user for three years, the Colonel supplied a template drawing of the void, which is was on the first 432 variant. They worked of that, no questions about temp, no questions about capacity. All headed up by this one CS and Colonel (who was not getting his MBE that year). They spent a fortune on design, tooling, fabricating to create something that does not fit with the UOR.

As far as I know the problem still has not been solved. A absolute waste of money. Over a half a million was my guesstimate. Engineers stayed around to remeasure, the Colonel Dissappeared and the CS blamed the OC who didnt even put forward the UOR.

 

[Jock the scot]

I think the word "possible" and the "?" could be taken out of the thread title and it'll give us the answer.

 

[ObnoxiousJockGit]

.....
It turns out that no one spoke to the end user for three years, the Colonel supplied a template drawing of the void, which is was on the first 432 variant. They worked of that, no questions about temp, no questions about capacity. .......

Mad scientist from DERA told me that he had never been in a tank before, until I gave him a shot, and that they were given a plywood or sheet metal template which constrained the gadget they were to produce. He was rubbing his skinned knuckles from an armoured cable which "his" box had displaced into the area of the gunner's traverse handle. (We used to tie the cable out of the way with green string but this was too good an opportunity to miss.)

 

[Ethel_the_Aardvark]

Well if you are still reading well done. bit like War & Peace this.

Not really, War & Peace is a popular and well written piece of literature (it also has less spelling mistakes and contains less fantasy).

Finally my take:

Like working with and generally respect the military and Civil Service but:

Every member of the NHS I know works harder and is paid less than MoD and military staff.

In that case you must only be mixing with the bottom end of the NHS food chain and the top end of the military one. Several of my friends are consultants in the NHS and I can assure you that they earn far more than all but the very senior military personnel.

The military are too rigid and hidebound to deal with changes made or to react to changing business environment. Or possibly are simply not interested. If I hear the phrase 'it's only government money' or 'good enough for government work' I think I will shoot myself.

Is that a promise? In which case "Good enough for government work".

Often really good leadership skills in military but the direction is flawed and/or pointless.

The Civil Service is so concerned about the pennies that it misses the biggies and does not really know VFM. The opposite almost of the military.

So are you suggesting that the military does understand VFM?

I have now left the MoD and frankly would not go back if you doubled my salary. I have achieved more for the public good in three days working at the Citiiens Advice Bureau than my last five years in MoD.

A rather damning indictment of your ability don't you think?

Of course I could just be a bitter old hack. Anyway enjoyed my time with The MoD at Kington,working with Navy divers at Customs and playing rugby with and against services. You are not keen on being beaten by Civvies are you but it can happen you know (if not that often).
By the way the Navy divers service was contracted out resulting in a cheap service from low quality contractor story of my life really.

My views are my own and I accept that I have been unlucky but judging from the world weary MoD staff I have met might be shared by few others.

Finally, the fact that I have been fitter (in the old fashioned sense) than most of the service men and women I have met suggests I might not have got the full picture. As this surely cannot be true..........................

You are clearly either very fit or you have not associated with members of the Field Army. I accept that you could well be fitter than most of the RAF but then again so could my 60+ year old mother.

Let the flaming commence (if I have not bored everyone to tears).

Sadly, I fear that you may well have.

 

[AfghanAndy]

We've barely got a hanger.

Doe anybody rememeber the 160 tonnes of ammunition that was lost in Bosnia? (It was in the news. That's how I heard about it.)

 

[History_Man]

Doe anybody rememeber the 160 tonnes of ammunition that was lost in Bosnia? (It was in the news. That's how I heard about it.)

Sssh! It went down on the Atlantic Conveyor...

 

[AfghanAndy]

It was decreed that the Bulldog variant required a fridge. The fridge was for the Medical Services to store there drugs, and vaccines. A UOR was created and sent off with no reply. Three years later a medical unit had a visit from a Rep from a procurement team, in tow a group of engineers, a civil servant, a Colonel from a Infantry unit (Non Mechanised) and a large van. Amused the OC took them to the shed where the Bulldogs were held. Tiffy nearly threw a fit as they were on 3 monthlys, the fleet manager threw a hissy fit as he was prepping kit. So they had to drag a bulldog ambulance out, fit it to full CES and fit Radios.

The engineers jumped in the wagon and asked if the bowman fit can be moved? Er no its permanent fit,

Hmm Engineers drag out a DPM chest freezer prototype, to fit into the area occupied by the CBRN filter, hmm well it fits, they wire it up it works magic.

Engineers look happy, CS looks happy the Colonel looks happy yay a successful fit, the engine is turned off and the batteries drain in 10 minutes Doh.

Fleet Manager turns up, CMT Class 1 Staff Sergeant takes one look laughs looks at the OC. The OC has look and Laughs, then gets his mobile out. Twenty minutes later a red faced QM turns up with the Drugs and Vaccines, They fill a third of a shoebox, the fridge is a twenty litre capacity. None of the CS fits, you cant open the door without dragging it out and the wiring loom is mental. OC speaks to the CS and has a gentle word.

It turns out that no one spoke to the end user for three years, the Colonel supplied a template drawing of the void, which is was on the first 432 variant. They worked of that, no questions about temp, no questions about capacity. All headed up by this one CS and Colonel (who was not getting his MBE that year). They spent a fortune on design, tooling, fabricating to create something that does not fit with the UOR.

As far as I know the problem still has not been solved. A absolute waste of money. Over a half a million was my guesstimate. Engineers stayed around to remeasure, the Colonel Dissappeared and the CS blamed the OC who didnt even put forward the UOR.

I prefer modifications to existing equipment like this.

Westland Sea King - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or the US mechanic who decided to stick a turret on his HUMVEE with bits of scrap that he had around the workshop.


Done on teh back of a fag packet, immensly workable and cheap.

Would teh fridge option not been a lot cheaper by purchasing some of these and saying to the Tiffy. Make that work.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=in+car+fridge&tag=armrumser-21

 

[bluntslane]

Further to post#24, "John"(?) also said on DII front page within the last month words to the effect of"... and in an organisation as big as ours I find very surprising that only 6 people lost their jobs last year for poor performance...we really need to be looking at our improving performance incentives...".

I've paraphrased a lot but it is correct in spirit.